2 deep leadership for activity

[AKdenldr]

Okay Scout is planning an adventure where troop will go on a zip line run by a company.

Groups of 8 travel through the towers, runs, and stations with 2 guides. Groups are about 30 minutes apart on the system. (All this takes place in cell phone coverage area.)

 

Here is the question: Scout believes he needs 2 adults for EACH group of 6 scouts to cover 2 deep leadership. (Of course this is a lot of adults to recruit for the campout. Let alone ones who want to pay to ride the zip.)

 

That isn't my understanding and I gently encouraged him to follow up with the CC to get the straight dope.

 

But, can someone who is up on the GTSS quote me chapter and verse on adult coverage of these groups?

 

~ AK

[Eagle92]

Don't have the G2SS in front of me, but it is a minimum of 2 adults per OVERNITE TRIP.

 

So if this is a DAY TRIP, no adults are needed. If an overniter, then a minimum of 2 adults are needed. Also no "one on one" contact, so one adult needs to be with 2 youths, unless the single youth is the leader's child.

[qwazse]

Congratulations to scout for planning an awesome day! Make sure he arranges for sufficient coffee and snacks for the two adults who will wait for them patiently back at camp.

[King Ding Dong]

The online version of GTSS is supposed to be the most up to date. I never liked "few instances, such as patrol activities" language. They say a few, and then only list two: day hikes and service projects. ( assuming few means three or more, otherwise wouldn't they have used the word couple ?) What is this "other" patrol activity that does not require leadership ? So if all the patrols go on separate hikes no adults are required ? What happens if two patrols bump into each other ? Run away or the adults will get in trouble ? Eagle92 I don't see DAY TRIP mentioned in this passage. I do see ALL TRIPS. Maybe there is another source that clarifies this somewhere ? Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

[Scouter99]

The online version of GTSS is supposed to be the most up to date. I never liked "few instances, such as patrol activities" language. They say a few, and then only list two: day hikes and service projects. ( assuming few means three or more, otherwise wouldn't they have used the word couple ?) What is this "other" patrol activity that does not require leadership ? So if all the patrols go on separate hikes no adults are required ? What happens if two patrols bump into each other ? Run away or the adults will get in trouble ? Eagle92 I don't see DAY TRIP mentioned in this passage. I do see ALL TRIPS. Maybe there is another source that clarifies this somewhere ? Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

Dudebrah, you say you don't see "day trips" then quote the part that says patrols can go on day hikes by themselves, and that adults are only required for overnight outings.

[Scouter99]

This is a common misunderstanding.

2 Deep is the rule for adult leadership on overnight camping trips.

No one-on-ne contact is the rule governing scout-adult contact.

 

2 Deep, therefore, does not apply to troop meetings, PLCs, day activities approved by the SM, etc. It does not mean that two adults must always be in the presence of each other on a single overnight trip, nor does it mean that two adults must accompany any breakaway group on a single overnight trip. It simply means that if the boys are staying somewhere overnight, there must be two adults with them.

 

No one-on-one contact applies to every scouting situation. It simply means that an adult may not be alone with a youth; you can accomplish that by having a minimum of 2 youths and 1 adult, or 2 adults and 1 youth.

[King Ding Dong]

The online version of GTSS is supposed to be the most up to date. I never liked "few instances, such as patrol activities" language. They say a few, and then only list two: day hikes and service projects. ( assuming few means three or more, otherwise wouldn't they have used the word couple ?) What is this "other" patrol activity that does not require leadership ? So if all the patrols go on separate hikes no adults are required ? What happens if two patrols bump into each other ? Run away or the adults will get in trouble ? Eagle92 I don't see DAY TRIP mentioned in this passage. I do see ALL TRIPS. Maybe there is another source that clarifies this somewhere ? Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

It says "required on all trips and outings". Then gives exceptions to that. Those exception are only for patrols on day hikes and service projects. Not cycling or swimming or anything else. It also seems to me that the exception is only for a patrol activity not a troop day hike or sevice project.

 

It doesn't make sense to me, but that's what it says. Help me understand.

 

What is the purpose of "all trips and outings" ?

 

I don't see where is says adults are "only" needed for overnight outings. I see an affirmation that "appropriate" adult leadership is required on all overnight outings.

 

The SM and two committee members are lawyers, I am not. This is how they see it without something concrete to stand on I am stuck with this.

 

Lol. Had to look up dudebrah on Unrban Dictionary. The need to make a BSA Speak dictionary.

[Eagle92]

Here is the actual quote: from page 4

1. Two-deep leadership.

Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required ( emphasis added) and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. ( emphais added)

 

Patrol activities can include patrol meetings, patrol shake downs, grocery shopping, etc. I am willing to bet that when the G2SS was edited to remove patrol overnite camping, 2011 or 12, they just took out the camping section from this sentence. If memory serves that last sentence use to read " With the proper training, guidance, and approval of troop leaders, the patrol can conduct overnight camping trips,day hikes, and service projects."

 

[Scouter99]

The online version of GTSS is supposed to be the most up to date. I never liked "few instances, such as patrol activities" language. They say a few, and then only list two: day hikes and service projects. ( assuming few means three or more, otherwise wouldn't they have used the word couple ?) What is this "other" patrol activity that does not require leadership ? So if all the patrols go on separate hikes no adults are required ? What happens if two patrols bump into each other ? Run away or the adults will get in trouble ? Eagle92 I don't see DAY TRIP mentioned in this passage. I do see ALL TRIPS. Maybe there is another source that clarifies this somewhere ? Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childâ€â€require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

I also have a lot of lawyers in my troop who constantly conflate 2 deep and 1-on-1, email your DE with your question, and he will give you the definite answer. My reply below is exactly what my DE told me. It doesn't stop the lawyers from continuing to be wrong, but it does stop them from threatening me.

 

As far as nitpicking the wordchoice of "day hike" rather than day trip, they're being idiots. Are all field trips in a field? Swimming is its own issue because of the Safe Swim requirements, but biking, etc that don't have their own unique rules are no different that a day hike. And if they're really pigheaded, you can point out to them that scouts commonly call bike trips "bike hikes" so a day of biking is a "day hike."

 

I don't know why you don't find a new troop. Even if the activity levels are comparable, there has to be a less idiotic troop nearby.

[Basementdweller]

More basic to the question is......

 

I am gonna bet a million bucks that the Zip Line company has a person over age 18 doing the hook ups on the tour......So if your worried about it Staff member can count as your second adult.

 

 

Or a simpler solution is the adults drive the unit to the event and then pull out the camp chairs and hang out in the parking lot.

[The Blancmange]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

[JoeBob]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

So if an adult participates in the zip-line activity, they can't be one of the first two or last two to ride, unless both adults are first or last.

 

No other way to guarantee that a scout won't be molested in the tree tops while waiting for the next boy to zip in on a 1000 foot cable...

 

 

 

Where's the sarcasm key?

[King Ding Dong]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

I count the 10 liter hat.

[Scouter99]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

It's easy to be sarcastic, but all kidding aside, spend a week in DSS or CPS and you'll snap out of it when you stop barfing.

Is it a serious inconvenience to stagger the youth and adult participants to avoid 1-on-1 contact on the platform? No. So there's no reason not to. Too many people make it too easy to get sarcastic about 2 deep/1-on-1 by conflating them and being ridiculous, but the simple fact of the matter is that no 1-on-1 is the barrier to both abuse and false accusations, and should be taken seriously.

 

Instances of abuse within BSA are 70 times lower than the general public for a reason, and our rules are it.

[JoeBob]

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

KDD: The hat holds many secrets...

 

 

99 - You're gonna have to tell me what DSS and CPS are if you want me to respond intelligently.

 

Would I bother rotating to avoid 1-1 contact on a zip line platform? NO WAY!

1- The rotation frequently changes as the guide clips clients into and out of safety lines, pushing riders to the back of a platform and then feeding the next leg from the front. Ain't gonna sacrifice safety in order to adhere to an extreme interpretation of a YPT rule. We don't control the rotation.

2- Why would you have to be a little flexible? If your group is 10 to 14 boys, the outfitter will probably split you into groups of about 8 (In my experience in the Southeast, that is about how many clients can safely occupy a tree platform.) I'm going to send one troop adult with each group and their guide and I don't care if the guide is YPT certified.

3- I am no expert on child molestation; so I have a hard time envisioning being molested while wearing a waist and chest harness, helmet, and heavy leather gloves during the 60 second interval before the next rider comes through the trees...

 

Common sense, anyone?