Can you Charter without "Fully Trained" Leaders

[tgrimstead]

"Quick back info....The wife and I are starting a Venture Crew, We recruited members, got a Charter Organization, before we contacted council about it. Got all the apps, online training certs, fees ready to go." Contact council and told we need this up coming Venture Leader Specific training....everyone. Advisors, Commitee, Charter Rep, All Of Us. Then Charter training in Oct. ( "which needs to be done ASAP because it affects your JTE you Know"...like I care) On to the Question. ..

Will having some of the Legion / commitee members not attend the training cause us issue in getting our charter? I felt bad enough harassing them with the online training. Now they have to give up a day and cash to attend Councils training. I was under the impression only direct contact leaders needed to be "fully" trained. Not Commitee members also.

[Eagle92]

It depends upon the council. Some councils are now demanding everyone be fully trained. Others are phasing it in. Some will allow up to 12 months, essentially until the recharter, to meet the training requirements, some 6 months, and some have to do it or you will not be able to charter. Talk to your unit commissioner, or district commissioner for advice.

[qwazse]

First, thanks for all your hard word on behalf of your youth. Second, you're in for a wild ride. Throw the gauntlet down with your DE. Say "my people will be available for X hours on the . Send us a trainer, and well jump through your hoops". Hopefully it will be the same day as VLST. If not, ask your people if any of them can make the Charter training. If not, punt. JTE is filled out by your crew president. If you can be humble enough to apologize to him/her and ask her forgiveness for costing them a couple hundred points, you're done. Warning, if your DE does take up the gauntlet, it's good form to provide snacks for the trainer.

[qwazse]

First, thanks for all your hard word on behalf of your youth. Second, you're in for a wild ride. Throw the gauntlet down with your DE. Say "my people will be available for X hours on the . Send us a trainer, and well jump through your hoops". Hopefully it will be the same day as VLST. If not, ask your people if any of them can make the Charter training. If not, punt. JTE is filled out by your crew president. If you can be humble enough to apologize to him/her and ask her forgiveness for costing them a couple hundred points, you're done. Warning, if your DE does take up the gauntlet, it's good form to provide snacks for the trainer.

By the way, VLST is a pretty significant course because the mental framework needed to handle the program is completely different from cubs or boy scouts. The more folks who understand the program, the better. The folks at the Legion probably have some background in scouting, but unless these are fairly young vets, it's unlikely they've experienced venturing.

 

 

Also for your personal sanity, Meeting other advisors regularly is critical. They will confirm that you're crazy, but they'll also help you know if you're doing things right.

[BadenP]

tgrim, If all your unit leaders took all the required online training, YPT, Leader basic, etc. you are good to go. Your DE should be helping you since new units are a requirement for his job not putting obstacles in your path.

[frankpalazzi]

TGrim: Welcome to the American Legion Family!!

[Brewmeister]

Answer to question: yes

[NJCubScouter]

I agree with the suggestion that you contact your District Executive and ask for clarification on exactly who needs to have which training courses in order for you to receive your charter, and what arrangements can be made to get that done in the fastest and most convenient manner for you and your volunteers. As for "charter training", I have never heard of it. Is it training for new chartered units, or for how to do rechartering, or both, or something else? As for the person at council mentioning JTE, I think it's kind of unreasonable for anybody to be talking to you about JTE before you even have a charter. You can't "journey" anywhere without a charter.

[TSS_Chris]

This new training requirement has been my downfall for the last 2 recharter periods. From what I understand from my DE, is that once National requires it of your Council, the BSA computer system will reject any recharter application that doesn't have a compliment of fully trained leaders. There is no way to roll this back, nor is there a way for anyone at the council level to bypass this requirement.

 

You can find the minimum requirements for adult leadership on the Unit Renewal Application Instructions. According to the only comprehensive reference I can find as to what constitutes "fully trained", the four key Venturing leaders (NL, CC, and 2 x MC) need YPT and "Venturing Leader Specific" (P21). Of course, P21 is not yet available online. With as many people as you need to get trained, you should be able to get your District Training Chair to come to your location and do the training in person at your convenience as several others have suggested.

 

I think the "charter training" you are referring to is the new, in-person Chartered Org Rep (COR) training the BSA has rolled out (D72 if you're following along on the official training scorecard). This should only be required of the one person on your committee serving as COR. AFIK, the COR does not need any other "Leader Specific" training. The IH does not need any training.

 

Once you have the 5 core adult positions filled with trained leaders, you can register any other adult members who can't make the P21 training as part of the "Unit Scouter Reserve" (91U). Once they complete this course, then you can move them into their "proper" position.

[BadenP]

TSS Chris, If there is a way for National to cause problems with your units charter they seem to find many ways to screw up the process. Our crew adult leaders do all Venturing Leader Training for the council, we have everything ready to go and can do a training with 1-2 days notice. All of the crews in our council are ready to go at recharter time in spite of National's efforts to make it difficult for a new or long term crew.

[TSS_Chris]

TSS Chris, If there is a way for National to cause problems with your units charter they seem to find many ways to screw up the process. Our crew adult leaders do all Venturing Leader Training for the council, we have everything ready to go and can do a training with 1-2 days notice. All of the crews in our council are ready to go at recharter time in spite of National's efforts to make it difficult for a new or long term crew.

I'll agree with that. I've had problems getting enough trained leaders -- and eve more fun, making sure each leader has created only one training profile, and I can inform my council of what they are.

[ScoutNut]

Tim, per your council, Tidewater Council, they require all TOP UNIT LEADERS, and COMMITTEE CHAIRS, to be fully trained for the 2014 charter year. A top unit leader for Venturing is defined as the Crew Advisor. This does not include Crew Associate Advisors, or Committee Members (although having all adult members trained would certainly be a very good thing for the program).

 

To be considered trained for a Venturing Crew, Tidewater Council council requires Venturing Youth Specific Training, and Position Specific Training.

 

Please note that Committee Training can be done online, and there is a different Youth Protection training for Venturing (also online).

 

Personally, I feel that, although it is not required by BSA National, or (apparently) by Tidewater Council, it is a very GOOD thing if the Charter Organization Representative (COR) is trained for their position. Many COR's have no clue what they are responsible (and not responsible) for, and many could care less. When starting a brand new unit it is a good thing to start it out on the right foot with the COR knowing about the program THEY are responsible for.

 

Tidewater has Venturing Specific Training coming up 08/24, and COR training coming up on 10/22.

 

For clarification, and more information, I would contact your District Commissioner (who should be included in the unit formation process anyway), and your District Training Chair.

 

Also, see the following -

 

http://www.tidewaterbsa.com/training/index.html#FULLY_TRAINED

 

http://www.tidewaterbsa.com/training/TrainingPolicyFAQs.pdf

 

[Scouter99]

Tim, per your council, Tidewater Council, they require all TOP UNIT LEADERS, and COMMITTEE CHAIRS, to be fully trained for the 2014 charter year. A top unit leader for Venturing is defined as the Crew Advisor. This does not include Crew Associate Advisors, or Committee Members (although having all adult members trained would certainly be a very good thing for the program).

 

To be considered trained for a Venturing Crew, Tidewater Council council requires Venturing Youth Specific Training, and Position Specific Training.

 

Please note that Committee Training can be done online, and there is a different Youth Protection training for Venturing (also online).

 

Personally, I feel that, although it is not required by BSA National, or (apparently) by Tidewater Council, it is a very GOOD thing if the Charter Organization Representative (COR) is trained for their position. Many COR's have no clue what they are responsible (and not responsible) for, and many could care less. When starting a brand new unit it is a good thing to start it out on the right foot with the COR knowing about the program THEY are responsible for.

 

Tidewater has Venturing Specific Training coming up 08/24, and COR training coming up on 10/22.

 

For clarification, and more information, I would contact your District Commissioner (who should be included in the unit formation process anyway), and your District Training Chair.

 

Also, see the following -

 

http://www.tidewaterbsa.com/training/index.html#FULLY_TRAINED

 

http://www.tidewaterbsa.com/training/TrainingPolicyFAQs.pdf

Balderdash! Training is just one more way for ~National~ to destroy Scouting! Any adult male automatically knows best how to run things innately, and doesn't need some suit telling them the best way, harrumph! What scouts need are adults unencumbered by ~best practices~.

[Eagle92]

99,

 

I do hope that's sarcasm. I am an advocate for training. BUT I do not want to waste people's time either.

 

So I will play Devil's Advocate.

 

I don't think the Eagle Scout whose been to Philmont 3 times needs IOLS.

 

I don't think the Eagle Scout, summer camp staffer, who's prior military and is a Camping, Cooking, Hiking, ad nauseum MBC who's been to WB AND staffed it, hence a 3 beader, needs IOLS.

 

I don't think the Eagle Scout who's been to Brownsea 22, the equivalent of today's NYLT and hence WB, needs outdoor skills training. Especially since BA22 was created by Green Bar Bill, and has a heavier dose of outdoor skills than today's IOLS course.

 

And if national didn't allow local folks to recognize older training,

 

I don't think the 50+ year veteran SM, who went through all the training for the SM Key, is a 3 Beader from the 70s, served on training staff , and still camps on a regular basis with the troop, albeit with a cot instead of on the ground due to age needs to redo training.

 

That's why I am glad testing out is allowed and the district/council training chairs being allowed to recognize older training.

[Scouter99]

99,

 

I do hope that's sarcasm. I am an advocate for training. BUT I do not want to waste people's time either.

 

So I will play Devil's Advocate.

 

I don't think the Eagle Scout whose been to Philmont 3 times needs IOLS.

 

I don't think the Eagle Scout, summer camp staffer, who's prior military and is a Camping, Cooking, Hiking, ad nauseum MBC who's been to WB AND staffed it, hence a 3 beader, needs IOLS.

 

I don't think the Eagle Scout who's been to Brownsea 22, the equivalent of today's NYLT and hence WB, needs outdoor skills training. Especially since BA22 was created by Green Bar Bill, and has a heavier dose of outdoor skills than today's IOLS course.

 

And if national didn't allow local folks to recognize older training,

 

I don't think the 50+ year veteran SM, who went through all the training for the SM Key, is a 3 Beader from the 70s, served on training staff , and still camps on a regular basis with the troop, albeit with a cot instead of on the ground due to age needs to redo training.

 

That's why I am glad testing out is allowed and the district/council training chairs being allowed to recognize older training.

Yeah, sarcasm. There's a strong anti-national hippie element here

 

I agree and disagree on your point. I strongly agree that every registered leader needs training in his position, and I believe that regardless of his previous life- or scouting experience. I'm a 20-yr vet who never did This is Scouting, IOLS, etc, but when my council required, I went gladly. Eagle Scout doesn't teach me how to run a troop committee, and not even really how to be a SM or ASM, nor a committee chair or treasurer, etc. Was IOLS silly, yeah, but I also learned things.

As for older guys who've done this or that training in 1970, that's great, but BSA's programs and policies change, and a competent person need not be intimidated by new material.

As for successful corporate, military, outdoors people, that's great and I respect their accomplishments in the military, corporate world, or outdoors--but none of that is Scouting. I've seen many more successful businessmen completely destroy a Boy Scout troop trying to run it like a business team than I have ever seen even an incompetent scouter ruin a troop running it like a scout troop.