Pressure Cookers

[King Ding Dong]

OK, just for fun....what temperature is necessary to eliminate human pathogens? (Hint: It isn't as hot as you might think) And then, at what altitude does that temperature equal the boiling temperature? (Hint, it's a really tall mountain)

I know from the new FDA cooking guidelines released a couple of years ago it is not just a function of temperature, but also the time at a specific temperature. It really depends on the pathogens you are trying to kill.

 

Generally 140 F over a 35 minute time frame, but there are some bacteria that can still survive IIRC.

 

If IIRC you cannot rely on a specific altitude, but must know the current atmospheric pressure. Learned this from calibrating my PID smoker controller.

 

Sous vide cooking uses this principle. Very low and slow. But seriously who wants to cook a chicken breast for 24 hours ?

 

I wanted a Thermapen but $89 was just out of reach, so I settled on a Themoworks RT 600 6 second thermometer. Grilled food tastes much better now that I can dial it in better. Hopefully the new Cooking MB will address this issue better. I really think all patrols should have a good digital thermometer.

[packsaddle]

OK, just for fun....what temperature is necessary to eliminate human pathogens? (Hint: It isn't as hot as you might think) And then, at what altitude does that temperature equal the boiling temperature? (Hint, it's a really tall mountain)

KDD, what is the predicted boiling temperature for water on, say, Mt. Everest...call it 29,000 ft? Yeah, I know that's a bit less than Everest really is, but humor me...the troop is unlikely camp there anyway.

 

Also, I'm asking about human pathogens, not bacteria in general.

[Basementdweller]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

 

[King Ding Dong]

OK, just for fun....what temperature is necessary to eliminate human pathogens? (Hint: It isn't as hot as you might think) And then, at what altitude does that temperature equal the boiling temperature? (Hint, it's a really tall mountain)

If the local pressure is 9.298 inches Hg then the boiling point of water at 29k is 154.551 F. If my calculations are correct.

 

Again from my understanding of the science it is a function of temp and time. Are you looking for an instant kill temperature ?

 

Some unreliable research shows it to be 163 F. I don't trust that number however, because it does not take into consideration environmental factors.

[King Ding Dong]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

How is a scout to know if say a hamburger has been cooked to the correct temperature ? Color, weight, time are all unreliable criteria. Unless the scouts like eating hockey pucks.

[Basementdweller]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

cook it till the juices run clear and if in doubt cut one in half and make sure no pink is present.... At home I cook to medium, but I grind my own burger.

[packsaddle]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

It's just a bit less than 160F on Everest. The point is...at altitudes we're camping at, simply boiling is sufficient. The pressure cooking thing is mostly good if you want to cook quickly.

 

KDD, I have watched enough non-stick surfaces incinerated during scout cooking to understand that compared to some of those attempts, that hockey puck would be a delicacy, lol. They learn by doing. And occasionally being a little hungrier than they had planned...incentive to get it right.

[King Ding Dong]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

Unreliable BD. We are dealing with children and potentially deadly bacteria oftentimes at a distance from health care facilities.

 

"Nobody knows how many millions of dollars were wasted on overcooked food, but far more importantly, the Center for Disease Control (CDC) estimates estimates that in 2011 roughly one in six Americans got sick from foodborne illnesses, about 128,000 were hospitalized, and 3,000 Americans died, about the same number who died in the attacks in 2001 or Pearl Harbor in 1941. The difference: Many were children." http://www.amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/meat_temperature_guide.html'>http://www.amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/meat_temperature_guide.html

"The color of cooked meat and poultry is not always a sure sign of its degree of doneness. Only by using a food thermometer can one accurately determine that a meat has reached a safe temperature. Turkey, fresh pork, ground beef or veal can remain pink even after cooking to temperatures of 160°F and higher. The meat of smoked turkey is always pink." USDA

 

"The idea that you would rely on intuition to judge something you are terrible at judging makes very little sense to me. Why don't you blindfold yourself too?" Nathan Myhrvold, food scientist, author of Modernist Cuisine: The Art and Science of Cooking

 

"Color blindness affects a large number of individuals, with protanopia and deuteranopia being the most common types.[6] In individuals with Northern European ancestry, as many as 8 percent of men and 0.5 percent of women experience the common form of red-green color blindness"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness

 

That means there is a good chance at least one member of a patrol is color blind. I am. BD I understand your troop is not of Northern European ancestry, but many are.

 

Pack, my concern is undercooking. Yes they learn by doing. Provided they are still alive to try again. I hope nobody tries to suggest a scout learns to cook by experiencing food borne illnesses.

 

I am waiting for the response, "I have been a SM 20 years and I haven't lost a scout yet". Yet.

 

Juices run clear ? Unreliable.

 

"It's not blood! It is myoglobin, a protein that carries oxygen from the blood to the meat fibers.

 

If it was blood, it would turn black and coagulate on your plate! You've seen this occasionally when a bit of blood left in the marrow of a bone leaks out when you cook. It gets hard and black. But the bright red liquid in your plate is thin, fluid, and flavorful. That's because it is myoglobin, not blood.

 

In Lehninger Principles of Biochemistry by David L. Nelson and Michael M. Cox, 4th Edition, 2005, it says "Myoglobin is a relatively small oxygen-binding protein of muscle cells. It functions both to store oxygen and to facilitate oxygen diffusion in rapidly contracting muscle tissue." They go on to explain that myoglobin contains the heme portion of iron that gives muscle its red color, just as it gives hemoglobin in blood its red color. Apparently the only time myoglobin is found in the bloodstream is after a muscle injury.

 

Let's just call it "juice" from now on, OK?" http://www.amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/meat_temperature_guide.html

[Basementdweller]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

KDD, ya can cook your burger your way and teach your boys to stick a thermometer in everything to make sure it is the right temperature.

 

I will teach my guys to cook a burger all ya need is a campfire and a something that won't burn easily..... We have a set of grates that fold and have a handle on them together that the boys love to use for burgers....... I have had burgers that were hockey pucks come off it and others that still moo'd...... Some that were fantastic......

 

Wondering who will have more fun.....Not really....I have seen the cook managing the flare ups and trading off who is watching the burgers and the bickering about whose burger is whose.........Great memories, puts a smile on my face.

 

Unreliable????? Naw, I am not paranoid about nonsense...... Of course I am not lording over the boys in the kitchen either, recently had some macaroni and cheese that they forgot to drain the water it was boiled in before they added the cheese packet........they couldn't figure out why it was so soupy.....laughing about it right now......

 

Nobody has ever got sick on one of our campouts from an under cooked burger or chicken or eggs.

 

My favorite breakfast activity is watching the great bacon debate .......Some like it crispy crunch others like it limp.....One patrol has everyone cook their own to their personal liking......Really fun to watch. One patrol had bacon fest.....They had bacon at every single meal.......Shaking my head... Story was someone had coupons or something like that.

 

So I gotta ask........Do you cook hot dogs on the stick over the fire?????? Do you use actual sticks or did you buy the metal hot dog forks??????

 

I get a picture of the poor cook checking the temperature of every single hot dog making sure their done.....

[King Ding Dong]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

As I said I was waiting for the "I haven't lost a scout yet" response. You didn't disappoint.

 

I use a stick for hot dogs most of the time but I sterilize it best I can in the fire first. Hot dogs are pre cooked and can be eaten right out of the package. No cooking required. The same goes for cured bacon. And cured Ham. You have to hunt real hard for uncured bacon and ham. Probably have to go to Whole Paycheck or a butcher to find it. Of course I would suggest at least warming the bacon up a little first. Thick floppy bacon is the best, just not cold.

 

The boys can try and cook a burger on a stick for all I care, just make sure its done.

 

Guessing when your food is done may be more fun, but Montezuma's Revenge if you get it wrong is not. Don't know if that or bed bugs in my car is worse on the drive home.

 

Congrats btw on doing your own grind. If you are going to cook right away you can drop your steak slices in boiling water for 15 seconds before the grind and make your burgers MOOOOOO!!!

 

I will say this for USDA recommended method. If they use a thermometer 90% of the time on a burger and get it over 160 then they have a lot better idea of what that should look, feel and taste like when they have to cook without one.

 

Note : I use the metal forks for cubs, otherwise they are making torches and poking around in the fire to much. We try to teach them what goes in the fire stays in the fire.

[Basementdweller]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

So it degrades to you making fun of a poor white kid who has bed bugs....Nice.

 

Ya know St louis bet my town for increase in bed bug infestations

 

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2013/07/09/more-bed-bugs-are-living-in-st-louis/

 

So your turn is coming....... Keep in mind....All that cabin and cave camping....how many folks have used those bunks and mattresses....

 

You truly are getting the program you deserve.

 

I am glad I am not affraid to eat what the boys cook.

[King Ding Dong]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

I quoted a Scoutmaster who said he thinks his program stinks. Why would anyone want to join a troop when the SM thinks it stinks ? Any "fun" made of any scout was done by you.

 

I am well aware bed bugs are everywhere, but thanks for the heads up.

 

I am curious, what part of USDA safe food handling practices do you find "nonsense" ?

[Basementdweller]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

I honestly find your food paranoia entertaining

[King Ding Dong]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

Ah, now I get it. Science = paranoia. Intuition = fact That's cool.

[Basementdweller]

Giving a thermometer to a scout and then telling him to cook to a temperature??????

 

Why not teach him to cook correctly and safely at camp with out all the extra gear?????

 

 

At the top of everest isn't the boiling point like 150 degrees or something silly like that????

 

So the patrol canoe trip was fantastic....Boys did great, they cooked a hot lunch not my first choice but ok....

 

Did 14 miles in about 7 hours including lunch? They made chicken tacos, very good.

 

How did your scout outing go this weekend?