Military and Scouting

[Twocubdad]

I think we strike a reasonable balance.

 

In addition to what's in the program materials, my SM minutes nearest Memorial and Veteran's days always relate to the holidays. As a troop, we made a big deal of the return of one of our Scout's brother from combat in Afghanistan. We have a Blue Star flag in the window of our Scout House (now two stars) and for years have sent a couple hundred pounds of soldier boxes overseas at the holidays. No, in the end, it's not a lot, but I think we do keep service and those who serve in the minds of our Scouts.

[Rick_in_CA]

I remember watching one parade in a AnySmallTown USA' date=' my host told me to make sure my son knew to take of his hat as the vets came down leading the parade with the flag; otherwise, a member who walks down the sidewalk beside the color-guard will chastise him for being disrespectful.[/quote']

 

Really? They would do that? What a jerk. That would make me want too put my hat back on if I saw that.

 

I never understand the self righteous attitude that says: I see something as disrespectful, so my response is to be disrespectful back. How about assuming that no disrespect is intended? Maybe they have a good reason for not taking their hat off (or whatever it is they are doing)?

 

[King Ding Dong]

The course on hat etiquette went away a long time before I started grade school. Rather than chastise people, how about a pleasant conversation on the proper way to be respectful.

[Stosh]

BP created scouting to ensure that young men had basic outdoor living skills.

JB What you define as Scouting has only one thing in common with scouts in that it has the word scout. I would like you to review my previous post and read carefully.

You say

"I'm not advocating some sort of para-military organization, just using the skill set of a military scout. Remember, although trained in weaponry, a scout is not there to engage the enemy, just check out where he is and report back. I'm thinking this is why the word scout is so important."

The skill set of a military scout? I dont think we need INTEL and CRYPTO merit badge requirements.

 

Why are you surprised that a young man that attained Eagle would succeed in the military? this is exactly what the military is looking for a person with survival skills, with an understanding of the world around him and has and leadership experience.

 

What about a youth that is really not into the military but whats to serve in another capacity either the peace corp where BSA skills would greatly enhance the young mans ability to succeed or as many youth in my area will attend universities that are DARPA centers.

 

it concers me that you say you are civil air patrol but not a combat vet. Yet you want to impart military thinking on scouts. In short the BSA traiing and merit badge system builds good citizen. If that citizen desires to serve in the military then the BSA will give that youth (girls included via Venturing) the skill required to excel in that career path.

 

Yes, I am not a veteran myself. At the height of the Vietnam War, I was #64 on the first ever draft. I went in was 4-F 4 rejected. End of my military career. However, I have spent 59 years in the outdoors. I have hiked most national parks, even a few in Canada. I hunt, fish, and have had numerous times where my skills learned in the outdoors has played in my favor. However, my background is not part of any agenda in this thread. I simply realize the connection between the esprit de corps offered by the military, the leadership development, the logistical organization and the self-confidence one acquires in the military has benefits for the BSA program. By tossing out the military "slant" in the program, have they tossed the baby out with the bathwater?

 

By the way, if BSA were concerned by the military nomenclature of the British designations, why didn't they accept more Native American naming conventions in it's place? Surely there was the outdoors/Indian connection that could have been capitalized on if they were worried about military naming conventions.

 

However, the BSA program was and still continues to keep it's roots in a military convention. The early BSA uniforms were in fact US Army uniforms and modern Sea Scouts still carry the tradition. They have dropped the cutlass and cannon, but keep most of the other naval traditions from uniforms to naming conventions. I know of no other organization that uses the term Quartermaster except for the military and BSA.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

I remember watching one parade in a AnySmallTown USA' date=' my host told me to make sure my son knew to take of his hat as the vets came down leading the parade with the flag; otherwise, a member who walks down the sidewalk beside the color-guard will chastise him for being disrespectful.[/quote']

 

Really? They would do that? What a jerk. That would make me want too put my hat back on if I saw that.

 

I never understand the self righteous attitude that says: I see something as disrespectful, so my response is to be disrespectful back. How about assuming that no disrespect is intended? Maybe they have a good reason for not taking their hat off (or whatever it is they are doing)?

In the original Flag Code of 1923, women and children were instructed NOT to take their hats off. Only adult males, and if the weather was inclement, they were to only raise their hats a few inches and remain holding it over their heads.

 

Members who walk down the street chastising people do more disrespect for freedom than the person who doesn't remove their hat.

 

Stosh

[walk in the woods]

So Stosh, just for clarification, what end-game do you have in mind? Are you suggesting we should re-institute drill, h2h combat training, PT, etc. Or are you just thinking we need to relax our attitude about camo pants? FWIW, I observed a number of scouts at the Brownsea Island display at Jambo. The lifesaving drill, whale harpoon game and the stave-combat stations were all very popular with the scouts. Survival skills sure but clearly a military bias as well. That said I'm sure marching and drilling wouldn't be terribly popular.

 

I'm also struggling a little bit to think about how we'd incorporate citizenship training without the military edge of some of our program. The flag ceremonies, flag retirements, saluting, color guards, etc. are a huge part of that Aim. If we moved away from the military edge would citizenship training suffer or would it become more of a progressive looking program?

 

FWIW, I'm a Navy vet, 81 - 87. I appreciate the work President Reagan did to change the perceptions of America's Armed Forces after the problems of the 70s. I'm also the son of a vet (USAF 56 - 60) and an Eagle Scout. My Scoutmaster was a WWII vet and landed in France on D-Day. I stand when the flag goes by because of them and those that continue to serve. Being a scout reinforced citizenship for me. I'm not sure many scouts today have the same influence I enjoyed as a youth.

 

Anyway, I'm curious to know what end-game you have in mind.

I recently had a brief (techonology-driven) "conversation" with a friend I served with all those years ago. He posted a picture or something musing about leadership. Now my friend rose to the highest enlisted rank in the Navy and served 20+ years. He's a deputy sheriff now in his home county. We decided the basis for good leadership is to "show up and give a damn." Obviously there's more too it than that but hopefully your young man that rose to crew chief has some of that work ethic instilled in him. Sounds like it to me.

[Stosh]

The course on hat etiquette went away a long time before I started grade school. Rather than chastise people, how about a pleasant conversation on the proper way to be respectful.

At least they aren't trying to start the flag on fire as it passes by.....

[King Ding Dong]

The course on hat etiquette went away a long time before I started grade school. Rather than chastise people, how about a pleasant conversation on the proper way to be respectful.

Or challenging each other to see who can hit the flag the most times with the Tootsie Rolls the politiians toss out at these parades.

[MattR]

Jblake, what are examples of "tossing out the military slant?" I'm not disagreeing with you, just want a better understanding of where you're coming from.

 

I agree with what you say about the leadership, teamwork, self confidence, etc of the military. Isn't this exactly why BP started scouting? He liked these aspects of the military but wanted to leave the violence out? At least that hasn't changed. Respect for any type of leadership has certainly dropped.

[qwazse]

I remember watching one parade in a AnySmallTown USA' date=' my host told me to make sure my son knew to take of his hat as the vets came down leading the parade with the flag; otherwise, a member who walks down the sidewalk beside the color-guard will chastise him for being disrespectful.[/quote']

 

Really? They would do that? What a jerk. That would make me want too put my hat back on if I saw that.

 

I never understand the self righteous attitude that says: I see something as disrespectful, so my response is to be disrespectful back. How about assuming that no disrespect is intended? Maybe they have a good reason for not taking their hat off (or whatever it is they are doing)?

Yes, Rick, they would do that. And, yes Stosh, I'm pretty sure sure these fellas knew the flag code well enough to make accommodation for weather, age and gender. They were directing their attention to adult males (especially the immigrants, who as far as I could tell were glad to oblige). Son #1 might of been old enough to pass for an adult, but since he did the respectful thing without being asked, I suppose we'll never know.

 

Geez folks, it's not like they were carrying batons and pepper spray!

[Stosh]

Jblake, what are examples of "tossing out the military slant?" I'm not disagreeing with you, just want a better understanding of where you're coming from.

 

I agree with what you say about the leadership, teamwork, self confidence, etc of the military. Isn't this exactly why BP started scouting? He liked these aspects of the military but wanted to leave the violence out? At least that hasn't changed. Respect for any type of leadership has certainly dropped.

I guess, having lived through those years, the camaraderie, the pride, the honor of what was once Scouting seemed to be replaced with individualized achievement trends. The sense of community (patrols) has taken it in the shorts quite a bit. It would seem in the military there is a trend to train together, serve together and then for many years afterwards gather for reunions, always holding on to that bond that they formed many years earlier. Now, once a scout has achieved his requisite requirements and has an Eagle pin, his scouting commitment is history. It is as if the earlier one gets their pin, the quicker they can quit scouts.

 

The leadership dynamics of the military of soldiers following their commander into battle has been replaced by a bunch of adults begging and pleading their minions to even show up for an event.

 

The uniform is but a joke. Mix and match and replaced by t-shirts with camp pictures on them and endless discussion on how to circumvent the uniform.

 

So what motivates our citizenry to SERVE in the military? One cannot serve effectively if their only goal is to serve themselves. Good Turn Daily and helping others at all times just doesn't seem to get much traction in today's scouting.

 

Yet the military continues on just as it always has. What's their formula they use that has since been dropped from scouting today? 50 years ago it was still there, I remember the boys in my Cub den were the same that were in my troop patrol. That group didn't really break up until high school graduation.

 

Stosh

[walk in the woods]

Jblake, what are examples of "tossing out the military slant?" I'm not disagreeing with you, just want a better understanding of where you're coming from.

 

I agree with what you say about the leadership, teamwork, self confidence, etc of the military. Isn't this exactly why BP started scouting? He liked these aspects of the military but wanted to leave the violence out? At least that hasn't changed. Respect for any type of leadership has certainly dropped.

Well, I suppose one of the things the military has is the UCMJ. Screw up, go see the old man, give back some money, stripes, etc. Spend a few days on bread and water in the brig. In the armed forces you sign the contract, take the oath, and there are consequences.

 

In scouting we don't inflict consequences very often. Since we don't require a uniform to participate, people don't respect the uniform. Since we don't require attendance at meetings/events to participate (aside from 10 events to advance) people make it a lower priority than sports, band, etc. that do require participation to get a grade. Scoutmasters who refuse to sign a scout spirit/SM conference for lack of participation get crucified as a gatekeeper.

 

I could be full of it though. More than a few have accused me of that. .

[MattR]

Jblake, what are examples of "tossing out the military slant?" I'm not disagreeing with you, just want a better understanding of where you're coming from.

 

I agree with what you say about the leadership, teamwork, self confidence, etc of the military. Isn't this exactly why BP started scouting? He liked these aspects of the military but wanted to leave the violence out? At least that hasn't changed. Respect for any type of leadership has certainly dropped.

Now I understand. Thanks for writing, this is a good thing to talk about. I'm not sure what the formula was. I suspect there wasn't one and it was just a part of our culture. In the military the formula seems to be that you're in it together and you truly depend on each other. I try to create that in scouts but I struggle with it because I haven't seen it before and neither have the parents. dcsimmons, while I do have consequences for lack of participation I think it's more than that. If I reduce this idea to a number in TroopMaster kids will just game the system. It's more of an attitude.

 

Maybe this is another thread but I see an underlying theme on several threads that somehow seem connected. This thread on the military, the one on scout spirit, honor, the out doors, and the ones on religion (aside from all the arguing). I can't easily put my finger on it but it has to do with believing in something bigger than ourselves. Whether it be our patrol, troop, nature, society, or God, it counteracts our selfish side and helps our selfless side. Logically, it makes no sense but, when done right, has a profound impact on people. I can't even describe it, yet teach it to the parents or scouts.

 

I had a SM meeting last night and we spent half of it talking about scout spirit, helping out without being asked, that sort of thing. We talked about every scout that was Star and above. There's one I need to have a serious talk with but most of them get it. They will try and help out. Many are not sure of themselves but they know the right thing to do. Very few of the scouts in my troop are just in it for the Eagle pin so they can quit. Some have even told me they started off with that intention but have since changed their mind. So, I think they are open to this, it's just up to me to provide them a way to experience it. But I admit, I could use some help.

[Pack18Alex]

"How far are we to carry the double-standard. We do flag ceremonies, we wear uniforms, we salute in military style, we form troops and patrols,... and yet we are not supposed to be reflective of the military."

 

My explaination to people is that we're a civilian uniformed service chartered by the US Congress. The Public Health Service Commissioned Corps and the much better known National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Corps (NOAA). We're not commissioned, but we are chartered by Congress. When we are in uniform, we're no different than any other civilian (non-military) uniformed Corps, we follow uniform protocol regarding the flag. When we are in Activity Shirts (Class Bs), we're no different than a soldier in their camoflauge field uniform.

 

We're not military, but we are uniformed. I mean, my local police, highway patrol, state troopers, and firefighters all have uniforms. Even TSA has uniforms. There are non military uniformed services.

 

"Your historical couch is also off by several decades; Scouting has denied that it's junior military since its first decade of existence, it's BP who popularized the label "peace scouts."

 

Well, I'm reading Scouting for Boys, and it makes it very clear (at least in the desire to excite young boys with a sense of adventure) that part of the reason to master these scout skills is so you can service King and Empire, filled with very militaristic and policing examples. We certainly have a history in the military, and while Scouting wasn't formed as a para-military group, the original manuals were teaching skills that would give you an opportunity to serve your King in the far flung regions of the empire.

 

 

[Pack18Alex]

Jblake, what are examples of "tossing out the military slant?" I'm not disagreeing with you, just want a better understanding of where you're coming from.

 

I agree with what you say about the leadership, teamwork, self confidence, etc of the military. Isn't this exactly why BP started scouting? He liked these aspects of the military but wanted to leave the violence out? At least that hasn't changed. Respect for any type of leadership has certainly dropped.

It's a problem with numbers and values. When I went to Cub Scout camp, those boys were all determined to be there. Many of them had spent every weekend for two months selling camp cards to be there. If I told them to take a hill, they'd have taken it with nothing but rocks.

 

I'm going to have to dial down my expectations with my regular unit, while also trying to bring that "Scout Spirit" with us.

 

One thing that helped us, regional events. When we went to Cuboree (which we had never been to before), the boys came back "getting it." Sure they traveled with our Pack from event to event, station to station, but being in a field full of Scouts, our boys finally got "scout spirit" from the units that had it. But weekly meetings don't cut it. At the troop level, the weekly meetings are hopefully all building toward the troop activities. At the cub level, it's enjoyable activities to build camaraderie and learn skills.

 

One thing I've noticed, the recognition for accomplishment is huge, and gets the boys proud and excited. Obviously at the troop level you need to do this more maturely, but all people like recognition, and leadership and teamwork is a part of that.

 

But begging the parents is a problem. However, giving out a patch and recognition to the boys that participated in the event and getting the boys excited about the next one seems to work.