Military and Scouting

[Stosh]

I remember the days back in the '60's where the military was taking heat for the Vietnam War. It was politically incorrect and a PR nightmare to compare scouts to the military, BUT.... the number of my scouts that went on to fulfill their civic duty because of their scouting background is quite large.

 

Is it about time we put the war behind us and go back to the basics that scouting once provided under such military protocol?

 

From other threads it is apparent that the terms scout, troop, patrol, etc. are all based on a military model. Leadership training of the BSA is remarkably similar to that of the US Army. I don't know who copied whom.

 

Green Bar Bill has been sent off to oblivion because of his patrol method is remarkably military in focus.

 

How far are we to carry the double-standard. We do flag ceremonies, we wear uniforms, we salute in military style, we form troops and patrols,... and yet we are not supposed to be reflective of the military.

 

Well, 50 years have passed since Vietnam and still the knee-jerk response has seemed to now be some sort of permanent cramp.

 

One used to be a baby-killer if they were in the military, now they are heroes, what's it going to be for the scouts?

 

Stosh

[st0ut717]

I am a Vet I was never a scout. But now I am a Scout Dad. I was a vet long after Vietnam. I served from 1988 until 2000.

 

Several of the scouts in my troop want to pursue the military as after high school. I will assist and encourage the boys who want to make that choice.

Do we do some militaristic things in scouting absolutely. however the scouting program is also fine for boys that do not want that career.

We teach skills that can be applied for the military if the boy chooses.

As of this writing my son has indicated that he wants to join the USAF and has his MOS. OK what merit badges would apply for that MOS so when you hit the school you dont get dropped:

All Eagle requirements

hiking and swimming

Scuba

rifle

Shotgun

etc...

 

 

But if I had a scout that came to me and said I was watching project runway and I want to do that....

OK let make sure you are on a path to Eagle you will need those skills for business

textiles

leather work

entrepreneurship

Art

 

Both are valid goals for the boys. Our job i think is to prepare the boys so they have the best chance at success in whatever choices they make.

 

[qwazse]

I remember in college (a little later than you would have been going, Stosh) a buddy of mine and I were in the same class. He was always looking sharp, and I -- well let's just say I never left the wilderness too far behind. The prof was just a few years older than us (maybe more, but she looked very young) and a very competent instructor, who was generous with office hours. I remember going her office and he was just leaving -- in full dress ready his ROTC meeting. Her first comment to me was "Students didn't dress like that when I was in college! Times have changed."

"For the better?" I asked.

"Yes, I think so, she said. We were so unfair to soldiers."

 

I think people have gotten a grip. They understand that not every uniformed individual or every citizen who salutes our flag is part of the military establishment. And even if they are, it's because they believe that we are worth it. I hope that the same attitude extends to scouts. IMHO, good citizens make good soldiers - not the other way around. And even if they don't enlist they make good soldiers of their countrymen who choose to serve, by voting and participating in their government.

[walk in the woods]

So Stosh, just for clarification, what end-game do you have in mind? Are you suggesting we should re-institute drill, h2h combat training, PT, etc. Or are you just thinking we need to relax our attitude about camo pants? FWIW, I observed a number of scouts at the Brownsea Island display at Jambo. The lifesaving drill, whale harpoon game and the stave-combat stations were all very popular with the scouts. Survival skills sure but clearly a military bias as well. That said I'm sure marching and drilling wouldn't be terribly popular.

 

I'm also struggling a little bit to think about how we'd incorporate citizenship training without the military edge of some of our program. The flag ceremonies, flag retirements, saluting, color guards, etc. are a huge part of that Aim. If we moved away from the military edge would citizenship training suffer or would it become more of a progressive looking program?

 

FWIW, I'm a Navy vet, 81 - 87. I appreciate the work President Reagan did to change the perceptions of America's Armed Forces after the problems of the 70s. I'm also the son of a vet (USAF 56 - 60) and an Eagle Scout. My Scoutmaster was a WWII vet and landed in France on D-Day. I stand when the flag goes by because of them and those that continue to serve. Being a scout reinforced citizenship for me. I'm not sure many scouts today have the same influence I enjoyed as a youth.

 

Anyway, I'm curious to know what end-game you have in mind.

[King Ding Dong]

With the changing technology based military, all the video games are possibly preparing the boys better for the future military than scouts can. Just a thought.

[st0ut717]

With the changing technology based military, all the video games are possibly preparing the boys better for the future military than scouts can. Just a thought.

I think the new computer merit badges are a reflection of the needs of the military cyber warfare. they cant find kids that can code right out of high school anymore.

[King Ding Dong]

With the changing technology based military, all the video games are possibly preparing the boys better for the future military than scouts can. Just a thought.

Computer skills especially coding are very important, but dangerous also. Scouts can offer a an opportunity to use that great power in an ethical way.

[rdclements]

Scouting uses many elements that are similar to the military and I know some military veterans who are excellent scouters. I have also seen problems when adults with military experience try to make scouting too militaristic. Then there are the adults who were never in the military but wish that they had been and that can have some troubling impacts on their scouts.

[Stosh]

So Stosh, just for clarification, what end-game do you have in mind? Are you suggesting we should re-institute drill, h2h combat training, PT, etc. Or are you just thinking we need to relax our attitude about camo pants? FWIW, I observed a number of scouts at the Brownsea Island display at Jambo. The lifesaving drill, whale harpoon game and the stave-combat stations were all very popular with the scouts. Survival skills sure but clearly a military bias as well. That said I'm sure marching and drilling wouldn't be terribly popular.

 

I'm also struggling a little bit to think about how we'd incorporate citizenship training without the military edge of some of our program. The flag ceremonies, flag retirements, saluting, color guards, etc. are a huge part of that Aim. If we moved away from the military edge would citizenship training suffer or would it become more of a progressive looking program?

 

FWIW, I'm a Navy vet, 81 - 87. I appreciate the work President Reagan did to change the perceptions of America's Armed Forces after the problems of the 70s. I'm also the son of a vet (USAF 56 - 60) and an Eagle Scout. My Scoutmaster was a WWII vet and landed in France on D-Day. I stand when the flag goes by because of them and those that continue to serve. Being a scout reinforced citizenship for me. I'm not sure many scouts today have the same influence I enjoyed as a youth.

 

Anyway, I'm curious to know what end-game you have in mind.

I was thinking along the lines of skill sets related to independence away from "home base". Logistics, survival, discipline, honor, etc. kinds of things that made up the esprit de corps of the military.

 

Sure we teach the basics, but never apply them. Where does one see the dedication one has with the military in scouting?

 

I'm just thinking that a lot of what made the pride of scouting 50 years ago just isn't there anymore and wondered if the world changed or scouting changed. In scouting the buddy system is just a process by which we keep each other from drowning at the pool. It used to be, one guy watching the back of his partner. With scouting nothing is it nothing more than bling acquisition and personal advancement? It is as if it's every man for himself.

 

I have often been asked why scouting is important for real life and I always use the example when a father is approached by his daughter and she wants to go to DisneyWorld, the father answers. I don't know how to plan out the trip, I don't know how much it's going to cost, we may starve to death along the way and besides, I can't even find it on the map. (The buddy system -> Marriage, patrol method -> family, Troop activity -> being a leader in one church and/or community, etc. There's a direct correlation between the dynamics of the military, goal oriented, skill sets to accomplish the goals, determination to see it through to the end, and leadership in getting others there besides just yourself.

 

Scouting skills are basic skills necessary for adulthood, not some sort of check the box accomplishment and a badge.

 

I'm not advocating some sort of para-military organization, just using the skill set of a military scout. Remember, although trained in weaponry, a scout is not there to engage the enemy, just check out where he is and report back. I'm thinking this is why the word scout is so important.

 

Just remember, the only survivors of the Custer Battle on the side of Custer were his Crow scouts. They did not sign on, nor were they expected to fight. Just be scouts.

[walk in the woods]

So Stosh, just for clarification, what end-game do you have in mind? Are you suggesting we should re-institute drill, h2h combat training, PT, etc. Or are you just thinking we need to relax our attitude about camo pants? FWIW, I observed a number of scouts at the Brownsea Island display at Jambo. The lifesaving drill, whale harpoon game and the stave-combat stations were all very popular with the scouts. Survival skills sure but clearly a military bias as well. That said I'm sure marching and drilling wouldn't be terribly popular.

 

I'm also struggling a little bit to think about how we'd incorporate citizenship training without the military edge of some of our program. The flag ceremonies, flag retirements, saluting, color guards, etc. are a huge part of that Aim. If we moved away from the military edge would citizenship training suffer or would it become more of a progressive looking program?

 

FWIW, I'm a Navy vet, 81 - 87. I appreciate the work President Reagan did to change the perceptions of America's Armed Forces after the problems of the 70s. I'm also the son of a vet (USAF 56 - 60) and an Eagle Scout. My Scoutmaster was a WWII vet and landed in France on D-Day. I stand when the flag goes by because of them and those that continue to serve. Being a scout reinforced citizenship for me. I'm not sure many scouts today have the same influence I enjoyed as a youth.

 

Anyway, I'm curious to know what end-game you have in mind.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I think in regards to the world changing or scouting changing the answer is both. I wonder sometimes if what we are reaping today was sowed in the me-first mentality of the 60s and 70s. It is my personal opinion that our society has shifted from one based on the common good to one based on the individual good. That leads us down the path toward an excessive individualism instead of a collective belonging. No don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating some socialist agenda. I'm all for personal responsibility and individualism. I just believe that people who really are responsible and quality individuals can intentionally subjugate their wants to the collective needs.

 

Again, my person opinion, the scouts are suffering here from the same issues that currently effect the American Legion and every other membership-based service organization I'm aware of. As the older members die off, there are no younger members to step up to take their place. Joining an organization where the individual needs are subjugated to the common good requires a selflessness that is sorely lacking in today's society. I wonder sometimes if the all-volunteer military will be able to survive the cultural mindset change.

 

FWIW, I'm just a guy trying to get along so I won't be posting any scholarly articles to defend my opinions, they are just my observations.

 

To your original question, could scouts benefit from a more militaristic mind-set, probably. But, that only works if the good of the unit comes before the good of the individual. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Stosh]

So Stosh, just for clarification, what end-game do you have in mind? Are you suggesting we should re-institute drill, h2h combat training, PT, etc. Or are you just thinking we need to relax our attitude about camo pants? FWIW, I observed a number of scouts at the Brownsea Island display at Jambo. The lifesaving drill, whale harpoon game and the stave-combat stations were all very popular with the scouts. Survival skills sure but clearly a military bias as well. That said I'm sure marching and drilling wouldn't be terribly popular.

 

I'm also struggling a little bit to think about how we'd incorporate citizenship training without the military edge of some of our program. The flag ceremonies, flag retirements, saluting, color guards, etc. are a huge part of that Aim. If we moved away from the military edge would citizenship training suffer or would it become more of a progressive looking program?

 

FWIW, I'm a Navy vet, 81 - 87. I appreciate the work President Reagan did to change the perceptions of America's Armed Forces after the problems of the 70s. I'm also the son of a vet (USAF 56 - 60) and an Eagle Scout. My Scoutmaster was a WWII vet and landed in France on D-Day. I stand when the flag goes by because of them and those that continue to serve. Being a scout reinforced citizenship for me. I'm not sure many scouts today have the same influence I enjoyed as a youth.

 

Anyway, I'm curious to know what end-game you have in mind.

I tend to agree with you that since the '60's me-generation and the technology "revolution" we have lost a lot of our once sense of community. There was a certain amount of watching out for one's neighbors and now it's, do we even know who are neighbors are? Someone once said to me that once the couch on the porch disappeared, so did the community. Heck, it's obvious that people of today have to walk in the streets today because many of the 60's and 70's neighborhoods are designed without even sidewalks. Block parties are contrived, events. We used to actually block off the street and everyone would gather for a major potluck picnic. Now we can't even get a permit to gather in someone's tiny backyard.

 

The me-generation and subsequent cultures have all refocused itself introspectively. People don't join organizations unless they are "getting something out of it". In the case of BSA, it's the Eagle classification they can put on their college entrance application and subsequent resumes. You are correct no one does it for the common good. Even politics for the common good have been replaced with personal power agendas.

 

None of these dynamics work well in a military organization, where one is forced by the situation to watch out for someone besides yourself.

 

I was surprised recently when one of my Eagle scouts achieved crew chief status in the Air Force rather quickly. He was an excellent leader and tended to be very much aware of "taking care of his boys" while in Scouts. I often wonder if his rapid ascension in the military is because mature leadership is not something that is often experienced by the military in its recruits.

 

Families are shattering, neighborhoods are fragmented, communities are polarized, and instead of pulling together for the common good, it's dog-eat-dog individualism.

 

A patrol used to be a group of tight knit pals, often described that way by BP, but with the mix and match attitude of adults, that even is fragmented. When I was a scout in the 60's a group of us joined, formed our own patrol, and when scouting disappointed us (4 years of scouting, made 2nd Class rank) we all joined Civil Air Patrol and had a far better time of it. After the first real search and rescue operation one is involved with, it was obvious that this was a "for real" adventure. It mattered to us that others were being looked after.

 

Stosh

[Scouter99]

I'm still not sure what you're advocating; you say you're not advocating becoming para-military, but that we should put greater emphasis on military skills. How can we get any closer than what we already are in that regard?

 

Your historical couch is also off by several decades; Scouting has denied that it's junior military since its first decade of existence, it's BP who popularized the label "peace scouts."

[st0ut717]

BP created scouting to ensure that young men had basic outdoor living skills.

JB What you define as Scouting has only one thing in common with scouts in that it has the word scout. I would like you to review my previous post and read carefully.

You say

"I'm not advocating some sort of para-military organization, just using the skill set of a military scout. Remember, although trained in weaponry, a scout is not there to engage the enemy, just check out where he is and report back. I'm thinking this is why the word scout is so important."

The skill set of a military scout? I dont think we need INTEL and CRYPTO merit badge requirements.

 

Why are you surprised that a young man that attained Eagle would succeed in the military? this is exactly what the military is looking for a person with survival skills, with an understanding of the world around him and has and leadership experience.

 

What about a youth that is really not into the military but whats to serve in another capacity either the peace corp where BSA skills would greatly enhance the young mans ability to succeed or as many youth in my area will attend universities that are DARPA centers.

 

it concers me that you say you are civil air patrol but not a combat vet. Yet you want to impart military thinking on scouts. In short the BSA traiing and merit badge system builds good citizen. If that citizen desires to serve in the military then the BSA will give that youth (girls included via Venturing) the skill required to excel in that career path.

 

 

[qwazse]

I think scouting does engender the level of respect for military personnel that most enlisted folks would like to see. They don't want youth holding them up on a pedestal, but they do want to be understood and respected for what they are doing for their country.

 

I remember watching one parade in a AnySmallTown USA, my host told me to make sure my son knew to take of his hat as the vets came down leading the parade with the flag; otherwise, a member who walks down the sidewalk beside the color-guard will chastise him for being disrespectful. I told my host "After all of the training in scouts, that boy will have more than the veterans to worry about if he doesn't already know how to behave." Sure enough, he followed protocol and took his hat off at the appropriate time. My host is now a cubmaster for his son's pack. I'm pretty sure that the prospect of his boys bestowing appropriate military honor was a selling point.

[acco40]

One of the many highlights I had as a Scoutmaster was to arrange for our troop to go the the Scoutmasters Council Camporee at West Point. Every year the Cadet Scoutmasters' Council hosts a camporee at Lake Frederick for approximately 6,000 scouts and it is by invitation only. It was interesting for me to see the Cadets - some only two or so years older than the Scouts put this on every year. It was also an experience to see soldiers - trained in crowd control and not in Scouting - tell a group of scouts not to block a pathway at Ft. A.P. Hill. It is one thing to have a middle aged, overweight, "Dad" Scoutmaster ask you to do something as opposed to a physically fit, BDU wearing, M-16 carrying, 25 yr old soldier barking orders at you!

 

 

 

Scouting does not want to be, nor should it be, a paramilitary organization. Yes, both Scouts, soldiers and marines may find it useful to have skills to survive in the outdoors. Also, due to the fact that a retired British officer who just happened to be a war hero was the founder of the scouting organization we do have some military accoutrements in our program. But, I think the Vietnam backlash and Operation Iraqi Liberation/Freedom hero worship is over. Now, I think the country is suffering from war fatigue - we've been fighting in either Iraq or Afghanistan for more than a decade.