Are Elective Arrows obsolete? How do we compete with Belt Loops/Pins?

[mashmaster]

I'm not a fan of the belt loops. The elective programs have TONS of fun activities. Some of them are a little dated' date=' but it would make more sense to me to update the boy books rather than add an extra program. Yes, I know the belt loops have been around awhile.[/color']

 

Then there are the economic issues. With electives, the boys do 10 activities and earn a $1.00 patch. Some activities are harder/more time consuming than others. With the belt loops, the boys do three (generally simple) activities and earn a $2.00 belt loop. With 40 boys in the pack, that would add up pretty quickly. Plus the belt loops can be earned more than once. How many times can you really learn the rules, identify the chess pieces and play a game? Recognition is important, but I don't know that we need to give the boys an award for every single thing they do in life.

 

Electives are also things that can be done by the boys at home. They don't all need to be done in den meetings.This flexibility is nice. When my own boys say they're bored, I tell them to go find their scout books and look at the electives. They can usually find a couple of things to do to keep us busy for most of an afternoon, sometimes 2 afternoons.

 

10-20 arrow points? Is 20 even possible? Are there 200 elective activities? I know some things can be done more than once and the Bears have the option of using some of the unused achievements, but 200 activities beyond the rank badge would take a ton of time. Earning just 5 or 6 arrow points takes quite a bit of work. I would emphasize having fun with the activities and not stress about how many arrow points.

 

 

 

Our pack does the belt loops required for Webelos advancement and we pay for the ones earned at district/council/day camp events, but otherwise we don't use the program. We had one family leave over this, but otherwise no one else has complained.

 

I think some of the parents are pleased by not having to buy the belts to put the loops on.

 

 

Do you guys sell popcorn? Because I know that we are usually struggling to figure out how to properly spend our commissions. Belt loops and patches never seem to be an issue for us.

[daveywow]

We sell popcorn. Sometimes I feel like we're the "Selling Stuff Scouts" instead of Cub Scouts. We make just enough to run the program. Thankfully, our Council is changing vendors, (from Trail's End to Camp Master). Rumor has it there will be more low end items, which would help our kids. Many of them live in low income areas and have a hard time selling $25-50 items. If there were extra money, I'm pretty sure we could find good ways to spend it , but it still probably wouldn't be on belt loops.

[Sqyire21]

I read all of this today with interest. Some of my thoughts:

 

- Belt Loops/Pins: Yes, they are very very easy to earn, but the purpose is to expose the scouts to something new. I'm not personally sure who would sign off a Belt Loop after only 45 min, as I know in my very recent former pack, it took over an hour to get most of the requirements. The Pin's normally took an additional 1-1.5 hours...after the Belt Loop. (and that was for the easy ones...several took longer)

 

- Arrow Points: My son's Wolf Den last year averaged 7-8 arrow points. They are relatively easy to earn....but like the Belt Loops, are just to expose the scouts to new things. I know the requirements changed just a few weeks back, to allow elective credit to be awarded for Wolf/Bear requirements, which weren't used towards the award of Wolf/Bear. For Wolf, this easily allows for a Gold Arrow point...and for Bear, even more.

For sewing on the arrow points, I usually bring my sewing machine a couple of times a year, and sew patches on. These sessions have known to take well over the 1 hour den meeting, but I warn the families, and they are normally more than happy to wait for the patches to be sewn on.

 

- Other Awards: I didn't see anyone mention them, but the NOVA awards are a recent addition to the program, and are a great way to expand a program and expose the youth to new things. My former pack managed to complete two of the NOVA over just a few short weeks. (3 per award) The scouts enjoyed the new information, and we were able to tie in other achievements.

 

- # of Arrow Points: I saw someone ask about the number of arrow points earned, and what needs to be remembered is the Cub Scouts can earn elective credit numerous times, for each elective. So...if you build 3 pine-wood derby cars in a year...you earn 3 elective credits. Play a board game as a family...another credit. It's very easy to earn a ton of electives over 12 months....

[mashmaster]

We sell popcorn. Sometimes I feel like we're the "Selling Stuff Scouts" instead of Cub Scouts. We make just enough to run the program. Thankfully' date=' our Council is changing vendors, (from Trail's End to Camp Master). Rumor has it there will be more low end items, which would help our kids. Many of them live in low income areas and have a hard time selling $25-50 items. If there were extra money, I'm pretty sure we could find good ways to spend it , but it still probably wouldn't be on belt loops. [/quote']

 

 

Understood, the other things we have done has been to sell hot dogs and such at local events. The boys get assigned 30 minute shifts and enjoy the event while making money for the pack. In our area, the packs in the better off areas help out the packs in lower end financially areas. Maybe get local businesses to sponsor the pack? just some thoughts.

[kari_cardi]

We sell popcorn. Sometimes I feel like we're the "Selling Stuff Scouts" instead of Cub Scouts. We make just enough to run the program. Thankfully, our Council is changing vendors, (from Trail's End to Camp Master). Rumor has it there will be more low end items, which would help our kids. Many of them live in low income areas and have a hard time selling $25-50 items. If there were extra money, I'm pretty sure we could find good ways to spend it , but it still probably wouldn't be on belt loops.

Our pack, like a lot of units, has a cap on how many belt loops we will buy each year to limit the cost to the pack. We also have a rule that the pack will buy each belt loop once but will recognize a scout each times he earns it. Belt loops and pins are not restricted items and parents are free to buy as many as they want. Pass all of the cost to the parents if that works better for your unit. Print off certificates if you need to hand out something. If a scout in my unit has the initiative to earn an award, I'm going to see that we recognize it in some way.

[ScoutNut]

We sell popcorn. Sometimes I feel like we're the "Selling Stuff Scouts" instead of Cub Scouts. We make just enough to run the program. Thankfully, our Council is changing vendors, (from Trail's End to Camp Master). Rumor has it there will be more low end items, which would help our kids. Many of them live in low income areas and have a hard time selling $25-50 items. If there were extra money, I'm pretty sure we could find good ways to spend it , but it still probably wouldn't be on belt loops.

A few years back our council had some delivery issues with Trails End, and switched to Camp Masters. Gotta say I was really disappointed in the quality of their popcorn. So was our council. We switched back to Trails End after two years.

 

Per BSA, the Pack determines how to include the Academic and Sports program, into their Pack program. The Pack also determines how the program is funded.

 

There are many different ways to fund the program. Some Packs pay for everything but multiples of the same loop (our Pack). Some Packs will include a belt loop fee in their annual Scout dues. Some will pay for only the first loop with any multiples of the same loop being paid for by the Scout's family. Some will only pay for a specific number of loops per year, with anything over that amount paid for by the Scout's family. Some, like yours, pay for only those earned by Webelos, or those earned at council functions.

[Pack18Alex]

We sell popcorn. Sometimes I feel like we're the "Selling Stuff Scouts" instead of Cub Scouts. We make just enough to run the program. Thankfully, our Council is changing vendors, (from Trail's End to Camp Master). Rumor has it there will be more low end items, which would help our kids. Many of them live in low income areas and have a hard time selling $25-50 items. If there were extra money, I'm pretty sure we could find good ways to spend it , but it still probably wouldn't be on belt loops.

We don't do duplicates in our Pack. I mean, a parent could certainly go to the Scout Store and buy them, but as a rule, they don't. We award each Loop/Pin once and only once. If they are re-earned as Webelos Scouts to satisfy activity pin requirements, I don't foresee a second loop, just a requirement satisfaction... One that I might really gloss over if they had earned it as a younger Scout... I realize it has to be "earned" as a Webelos, but I'd probably be okay with a much more glossed over "earn" as opposed to a detailed earn.

[christineka]

My group has earned belt loops together, mainly because the webelos have to earn it and we're doing den meeting together. The wolves and bears did earn a bunch of belt loops at camp, though I was there and they didn't actually complete all requirements, but commissioner decided to award the belt loops anyway. (Did the same with webelos' camp and activity pins.) I do LDS scouts, where boys are automatically signed up for scouts on the 8th birthday. This isn't a family decision to put the boys in scouts. Many of the boys come to scouts because that's what they're supposed to do and then they do no more scouts at home. We have to focus on just getting the rank achieved at scouts (though there's always a few requirements that must be done at home). We also have kids coming in all through the year, so we have to redo stuff. I have been trying to keep track of all the boys' progress. My son earned 3 arrow points for each rank of wolf and bear. It was mostly stuff he just happened to do- or he was bored and I suggested he look in his scout book for something to do. I saw a webelos scout at both camps (not sure how he got to go to wolf/bear camp, when he's clearly a webelos), who had about 9 or 10 arowheads for each rank, a belt full of bling, his webelos colors were full, and he had a jacket full of patches. His mom had another jacket full of patches. My guess is that mom is one of those, who is very good at motivating her boy. (Had a chat with her at webelos' camp and she homeschools her kids as well. She's also interesting and needs no motivation to talk about herself and kids.)

[Pack18Alex]

My group has earned belt loops together, mainly because the webelos have to earn it and we're doing den meeting together. The wolves and bears did earn a bunch of belt loops at camp, though I was there and they didn't actually complete all requirements, but commissioner decided to award the belt loops anyway. (Did the same with webelos' camp and activity pins.) I do LDS scouts, where boys are automatically signed up for scouts on the 8th birthday. This isn't a family decision to put the boys in scouts. Many of the boys come to scouts because that's what they're supposed to do and then they do no more scouts at home. We have to focus on just getting the rank achieved at scouts (though there's always a few requirements that must be done at home). We also have kids coming in all through the year, so we have to redo stuff. I have been trying to keep track of all the boys' progress. My son earned 3 arrow points for each rank of wolf and bear. It was mostly stuff he just happened to do- or he was bored and I suggested he look in his scout book for something to do. I saw a webelos scout at both camps (not sure how he got to go to wolf/bear camp, when he's clearly a webelos), who had about 9 or 10 arowheads for each rank, a belt full of bling, his webelos colors were full, and he had a jacket full of patches. His mom had another jacket full of patches. My guess is that mom is one of those, who is very good at motivating her boy. (Had a chat with her at webelos' camp and she homeschools her kids as well. She's also interesting and needs no motivation to talk about herself and kids.)

I realize that this is more work than you necessarily want to do, but I think you could make your life less insane with an annual schedule of events, and ask the parents to step up more.

 

I would look at your calendar of when your Den Meets (around holiday/school schedule). I would lay out the Wolf Trail/Bear Trail along the calendar, so you know you do Achievement X this month, Y that month. So whenever the boy ages into the Den, they begin on the trail as scheduled. It'll take a year to finish the trail, but they'll finish it by their birthday. 8 month program w/ 2 Den Meetings/month gives you 16 meetings. You can schedule 16 Bear Achievements, and the 12 Wolf Achievements + 4 groups of Wolf Electives. Try to line up the Wolf/Bear ones that are related. So the boy finishes around his next birthday when it's time to rank advance. Scout Camp can supply Belt Loops/Pins/Electives.

 

LDS Webelos is one year, right. Figure you have 14 Meetings for Webelos Activities and 2 Meetings dedicated to "Troop Stuff." Schedule a meeting for Scout Master discussions meeting, and a learn Scout Sign/Oath/Law meeting, and get a Den Chief/ASM/SM to come in for those. Schedule the Den Hike/Campout with the Troop as well. Across 14 Meetings, you can do 7 Webelos Activity Pins w/o trouble and complete the Arrow of Light.

[blw2]

Last year for Wolf, my son earned 3 arrows, was two electives away form his fourth but I couldn't motivate him to do more..... He's indifferent about it, doesn't get too excited about awards..... wish I knew a trick to invigorate him!

Anyway, we had 1 boy signed off for 8 points, others earned (or were signed off for) 6, 2, and 1. And four boys earned none.

 

Our pack does seem to focus a bit more on the loops. Honestly I think its mainly because nobody is working in the books until the last minute.

Loops are easy, and an easy way to pull together a quick den meeting.

I'm sure that that our high arrow earners were benefactors of moms flipping through the book and signing off on things that little Jr. did some day. Didn't matter that they didn't honor the requirements to the letter or that they even did it under the "Auspices of Scouting". I even called one mom on an elective that required a presentation to the den..... and I sure don't remember him doing any presentations..... She quoted some other requirement from a book that didn't have the presentation required..... I figure it might be from older brother's outdated book. Anyway, I wasn't going to fight over it and just wanted to make the point about following the letter. Told her if that's what her book says then we'll let it go but suggested she might want to use the current book next year....

[Khaliela]

It may interest some of the cub leaders to know that the award of belt loop isn't recorded anywhere with their council. It's as if the award don't really exist; at least not on paper. The arrow points, on the other hand, do show up on the council advancement reports.

 

I'm in the process of going though my sons advancement report in preparation for him submitting his Eagle Scout application. He has a whole string of beltloops from cubs in his closet, but they don't count for anything--only the arrow points show up on the advancement report. Luckily nothing from cubs matters when it comes to eagle rank, but it was interesting to see since our pack also pushed beltloops over arrow points.

[ssgjbroyles]

It may interest some of the cub leaders to know that the award of belt loop isn't recorded anywhere with their council. It's as if the award don't really exist; at least not on paper. The arrow points, on the other hand, do show up on the council advancement reports.

 

I'm in the process of going though my sons advancement report in preparation for him submitting his Eagle Scout application. He has a whole string of beltloops from cubs in his closet, but they don't count for anything--only the arrow points show up on the advancement report. Luckily nothing from cubs matters when it comes to eagle rank, but it was interesting to see since our pack also pushed beltloops over arrow points.

Believe me, belt loops ARE ON INTERNET ADVANCEMENT!!! I just updated my Pack's records...more like am progressing nicely on it. Belt Loops are recorded on Internet Advancement.

[Khaliela]

It may interest some of the cub leaders to know that the award of belt loop isn't recorded anywhere with their council. It's as if the award don't really exist; at least not on paper. The arrow points, on the other hand, do show up on the council advancement reports.

 

I'm in the process of going though my sons advancement report in preparation for him submitting his Eagle Scout application. He has a whole string of beltloops from cubs in his closet, but they don't count for anything--only the arrow points show up on the advancement report. Luckily nothing from cubs matters when it comes to eagle rank, but it was interesting to see since our pack also pushed beltloops over arrow points.

Yes, you can type them in on the internet advancement; and you need one of those nifty paper sheets if you are turning in paper advancement forms, however, the councils don't retain the records. They vanish-- Belt loops do not show up on an advancement report generated by your council. We're on our 4th Eagle BOR this year and none of the boys beltloops show up. Two were from a pack chartered by the VFW; on was from a Catholic Pack; (the preceding 3 were from the same council); the last was from a council in Ohio, he has no beltloops recorded either.

 

It's not a big deal because nothing from Cubs matters anyway, but it is interesting that so many packs are trying to earn them when they won't show up on an advancement report when the kid goes up for Eagle. The Arrow points do show up though.

[Sqyire21]

It may interest some of the cub leaders to know that the award of belt loop isn't recorded anywhere with their council. It's as if the award don't really exist; at least not on paper. The arrow points, on the other hand, do show up on the council advancement reports.

 

I'm in the process of going though my sons advancement report in preparation for him submitting his Eagle Scout application. He has a whole string of beltloops from cubs in his closet, but they don't count for anything--only the arrow points show up on the advancement report. Luckily nothing from cubs matters when it comes to eagle rank, but it was interesting to see since our pack also pushed beltloops over arrow points.

The belt loops 'can' show up on internet advancement...but it depends on who you have input your awards. I know I input dozens of belt loops as advancement chair, but when I spoke to the district register, she didn't care at all, and even admitted she didn't input them. Overall, I still find it interesting how many parents want to ensure Little Johnny has all the Belt Loops and Arrow Points, when really...only the Arrow of Light goes on any final reports...kinda like Eagle...