Scouting Heritage MB

[Kahuna]

As a Scouting history buff, I'm very interested in Scouting Heritage MB, but am curious if any Scouts are. Has anyone had any interest in it from their Scouts yet? Any leaders thinking of including it in program in coming years? Does it seem like a good idea? I'd like to be a counselor, but it seems difficult to get Scouts for the required MBs, if you're not directly connected with a unit.

[skeptic]

Kahuna: I have been a counselor since the outset; the only one for a short time in our council. Still not very many. While most scouts that see displays I put on two or three times a year are mildly interested, there are few that spend any time with in depth viewing or ask me specific questions. On the other hand, at the last Eagle dinner in Spring I could not find one of my history books and got worried; finally discovered a scout and his mother sitting on a bench pouring over the book. Every once in a while, when I ask my Scouting History question that is now a part of our Eagle boards, I have one very well versed; but most have the bare minimum from the handbook. Other than after a merit badge gathering the first year it was available, I have had no calls. But it still has its place. Not sure how to get more interest, as almost all scouts focus on the Eagle badges, a few really fun ones, and the easiest outside of the Eagle.

[clemlaw]

I'm a counselor for Scouting Heritage. I'm not connected with any particular troop--I'm just on the Council list waiting for the phone to ring, which hasn't happened yet. I did do it at a "Merit Badge University" type event, and I was quite disappointed that most of the scouts (despite be instructed to do so) didn't really bother to read the merit badge pamphlet, or even the requirements. To encourage them to do so if I do it again, I made the following web page which outlines my expectations, and has some ideas about sources of information:

 

http://www.w0is.com/scouting/ScoutingHeritage.htm

[skeptic]

I'm a counselor for Scouting Heritage. I'm not connected with any particular troop--I'm just on the Council list waiting for the phone to ring, which hasn't happened yet. I did do it at a "Merit Badge University" type event, and I was quite disappointed that most of the scouts (despite be instructed to do so) didn't really bother to read the merit badge pamphlet, or even the requirements. To encourage them to do so if I do it again, I made the following web page which outlines my expectations, and has some ideas about sources of information:

 

http://www.w0is.com/scouting/ScoutingHeritage.htm

When I met with the group of scouts at the group session the first time, I added Green Bar Bill and Edward Robinson to the list of possible bio's. Both are very important in the history of the program. Another is Norman Rockwell; of course he fits with the Boy's Life info too. I like your approach to the prep, especially if it is to be a group session. Thanks for sharing.

[Kristian]

I wouldn't expect much interest in this merit badge. First of all its essentially bookwork and research which generally isn't something a boy will willingly choose to do and likely will only do in school. Also it isnt eagle required so that immediately will knock it off the interest lists of many other scouts.

 

It likely would help the scouts to learn about the history of scouting as understanding early scouting is essential in realizing where it is currently going astray. More of this information really should be a standard part of the handbook.

[PA Scoutmaster]

I have had one or two boys in my troop express interest. I think it would be great for scouts to learn about the history of scouting. At a recent Eagle BOR, the candidate was asked which merit badge he would add to the list of Eagle required. He said Scouting Heritage.

[Kahuna]

Kahuna: I have been a counselor since the outset; the only one for a short time in our council. Still not very many. While most scouts that see displays I put on two or three times a year are mildly interested, there are few that spend any time with in depth viewing or ask me specific questions. On the other hand, at the last Eagle dinner in Spring I could not find one of my history books and got worried; finally discovered a scout and his mother sitting on a bench pouring over the book. Every once in a while, when I ask my Scouting History question that is now a part of our Eagle boards, I have one very well versed; but most have the bare minimum from the handbook. Other than after a merit badge gathering the first year it was available, I have had no calls. But it still has its place. Not sure how to get more interest, as almost all scouts focus on the Eagle badges, a few really fun ones, and the easiest outside of the Eagle.

That sort of follows my thinking on it. Not being Eagle required, which it probably should be, definitely is a downer. It's not particularly easy, either, and requires actual reading and study. A real shame, since most Scouts and leaders know little or nothing about the legacy of Scouting. I'm glad to know you do historical displays. We have a gent in our council who does a display at many events. He is a major collector and has quite a lot of great history.

[Kahuna]

I'm a counselor for Scouting Heritage. I'm not connected with any particular troop--I'm just on the Council list waiting for the phone to ring, which hasn't happened yet. I did do it at a "Merit Badge University" type event, and I was quite disappointed that most of the scouts (despite be instructed to do so) didn't really bother to read the merit badge pamphlet, or even the requirements. To encourage them to do so if I do it again, I made the following web page which outlines my expectations, and has some ideas about sources of information:

 

http://www.w0is.com/scouting/ScoutingHeritage.htm

I really like your web page. I'd like to use it as a guide in case I get some live Scouts who want to do the badge. I was also curious about the University of Scouting results. Sadly, I think most kids go for the exciting stuff or merit badges you can knock out in a day at ours. We had some historical items and books at our Sea Scouting display last year and surprisingly a number of boys and leaders took time to pour over it. I think I'll do the paperwork to get on the approved list and see where it follows from there. Thanks for posting that!

[Scouter99]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

[Kahuna]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

I'm not familiar with the book, but I see it's on Amazon. There are a number of books that have quite a lot on Beard and Seton and a couple of recent biographies. David Scott's The Scouting Party gives a pretty in-depth look at Seton and Beard and the relationship of both men with Baden-Powell. Dave includes a lot of detail as to dates, etc. Unfortunately, in my research, I haven't found any one book that gives a really good overall picture of BSA History. Of course, the most interesting parts of Scouting history are the things you probably least want to share with Scouts, such as the inter-personal sniping matches among the major players.

[Scouter99]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

Yep, I loved Scott's book, I've just bought a second copy for the class now that prices have come down. For a long time they were like $50+ on Amazon, but all of a sudden there's a load of used ones cheap. I also picked up Scott's other book while I was at it.

I personally plan to cover the personality issues; the official London fog history smells funny to anyone that gives it a second thought, and I think if we're going to do a history MB then there it is warts and all.

My really big concern is that one of them starts Googling BP and comes across the crap about him being gay and then I'm stuck answering questions about that.

[Kudu]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

Seton and Beard are often cast as outdoorsmen heroes in a historic battle against the indoor agenda of James West. If you read between the lines of Scott's "The Scouting Party," however, you can see Seton and Beard as perhaps united only in their bitter jealousy of the historical success of Patrol-based Scouting.

 

Scott's excerpt from the censored chapter of "Hardly a Man is Now Alive," in which Beard lies outright to claim his invention of the term "Boy Scout" years before Baden-Powell, is by itself worth the price of Scott's book:

 

"Beard's account gave to understand that Scouting arose directly from his efforts...He liberally reconstructed his conversations with 'Recreation' publisher William Annis about starting a boys organization. 'Annis, I think I have a great idea,' Beard recalled telling him. 'We will form a Society of Boy Scouts and identify it with the greatest of Scouts by calling the boys ''The Sons of Daniel Boone'.' Annis was immediately enthusiastic. He cried, 'Mr. Beard, we'll sweep the country with it.' He little knew that we were going to sweep the world" (page 221).

 

Like all pro-BSA historians, Scott casts the villain of his story as "The American Boy Scouts" (America's sole objector to the YMCA's goal of an absolute monopoly on Scouting in the United States), but fails to acknowledge that the YMCA's classroom-based replacement of B-P's outdoor badge system, and the YMCA's horrifically anti-Patrol System program was as wide of the mark as the American Boy Scouts' militarism.

 

It was Seton and Beard's spotlight on stand-alone Scoutcraft skills (which were then, and now once again tested indoors by adult "Boards of Review" rather than in a Patrol on patrol), that delayed America's widespread adoption of the Patrol Method until the late 1920s.

 

Word on the street is that because of Tim Jeal, the BSA allows only proven pro-BSA historians to examine its archives. The Scouting Heritage story I would like to hear is how James West (himself a YMCA man) transcended Seton and Beard's anti-Baden-Powell agenda, stood up to YMCA leadership theory, then single-handedly introduced the Patrol Method and hired William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt to implement it.

 

If only we had such a Chief Scout Executive today.

 

The other bookend to this forever-to-be-untold story is how Wood Badge's demolition of Scoutcraft and the Patrol Method began in 1965, months before Hillcourt was even out the door into retirement. Did Hillcourt recognize and object to the fatal Position of Responsibility requirements, as we know he did to Wood Badge's replacement of Scoutcraft with "leadership skills"?

 

Given that the unveiling by John Larson (the father of Modern Wood Badge) of Leadership Development's use of ad hominem attacks (as the ultimate defense of "leadership skills") was directed against William Hillcourt himself, what was the tenor of the internal memos in which Larson detailed the systematic destruction of Hillcourt's life work, and the BSA's subsequent fall from unprecedented popularity with boys, to the marginal cult of adult helicopter skills that is Scouting's Heritage today?

 

Mere sniping matches, Kahuna?

 

Strong campfire horror story to follow.

[Eagle92]

After reading the Jeal book, I can understand why BSA limits access. Jeal briefly mentions the other women BP was interested in and who turned him down, and focuses on a few parts of letters. Doesn't take into account the mores and customs of the Victorian time period, nor the sense of duty that the British military instilled. BUT i Olave did destroy all the old correspondence after BP's death. The few letters between BP and the ladies of his bachelor days are to be found with their families.

 

[Scouter99]

I'm thinking of using Story of the Boy Scouts by Wyatt Blassingame as a basic primer when I offer this badge; any opinions on the book? I like it because it acknowledges Seton and Beard's pre-BP roots (though it does neglect to even give events' years with those two while meticulously dating BP's actions).

I'm no expert, so help me out, here, Kudu: The route to implementation of the Patrol Method that you lay out (that it had to be done in spite of DCB and ETS) and that the Y replaced "BP's outdoor badges" ignores Scott's argument that BP stole both patrols and badges from ETS in the first place.

In the case of patrols, why would West need to go over ETS to implement something ETS invented?

In the case of badges, how great was the Y's influence, really, outside of the troops chartered to local Y's, when the handbook, written by Seton, included Seton's outdoor badges?

 

I haven't read either of Jeal's books on BP, so I don't have much contrast, but I was also confused by your description of Scott as pro-BSA. As I read the book, I was struck by its contradictions of everything BSA tells us about itself, from calling BP a plagiarizer whose own program was doomed without stealing ideas from ETS, to boldly declaring the London fog legend to be a lie. He himself may be friendly with/to BSA, but the history hardly seems friendly to the BSA party line.

[skeptic]

Please, lets not continue the vendettas against everything National into this too. While the original patrol system is not the same, it still exists; and in many units it does a very good job of doing what it was developed to do. Certain realities in our society dictate many of the rationales in today's softened strictures. We live in a super litigious culture where much of what we did easily and with little concern as youth (those of us from the earlier periods; the old guys) is now simply not allowed due to fears of legal issues and overly protective and fearful people. Ironically, at the same time, we allow things today, actually almost encourage some, that would have gotten people beat, jailed, or worse forty or fifty years ago. Still, while we continue to fight to keep the basic skills in the program, good units do. We also do things that would never even been attempted back then, due to newer technology and superior equipment. Most camping in the old days was done with the assistance of vehicles of some sort, either wagons, carts, pack animals, and so on. Almost any early memoir predating 1940 talks about getting there without carrying anything but basic stuff on their backs.

 

I am not claiming that today is better than yesterday. What I am saying is that many of the comparisons are simply not true. I have a troop that is 92 years old; and fortunately I also have many photos from early days, as well as various short write ups of activities. They camped in orchards, on farms, and sometimes "drove" to the end of the road, set up camp, and day hiked. They also took their fishing poles, rifles, and sometimes small game traps, while having staples on the truck in which they arrived (literally; on top of the gear).

 

The animosity a few continue to post is often simply over board and often, to anyone who has done any "serious" readings, obviously slanted and sometimes inaccurate. Am currently reading a book from 1961, THE BLACK PANTHER BANNER, about a Lone Scout group in the Wichita area in the thirties. Read the book THIRTEEN YEARS OF SCOUT ADVENTURE by Walsh, or early boys' magazines. You will see something of what I am speaking.