Atheists opposed to Holocaust memorial design

[Brewmeister]

http://dispatchpolitics.dispatch.com/content/blogs/the-daily-briefing/2013/07/07-17-13-freedom-from-religion.html

 

Discuss...

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, it wasn't just Jews who were killed in the holocaust, but this memorial seems to only be about them.

 

By the way, what does this have to do with scouting?

[ThomasJefferson]

You know, I'm just not a big fan of memorials at all. Memorials are about feelings, so when feelings get hurt, it's no surprise everyone gets overly passionate and upset. I bet that around 50% of memorials are erected in anger as a way of tells us all to go fly a kite rather than out of respect and a sense of education of the public.

 

In this case, my question is why do we need a holocaust memorial erected in 2013? Do we need a new civil war memorial too? What about a new War of 1812 memorial? Seems like a stale topic to be erecting statues for it.

 

How much did it cost? And the land - what did that cost? Could this money have been used for something else useful to the community other than a 3D expression of outrange and sadness?

 

At the same time, it probably didn't cost so much that it is worth protesting. I am not a fan of we atheists trying to expunge God from all public references. Walking through a cemetary the other day, I noticed the military headstones have symbols of each religion. The symbol I use as my avatar here is the symbol on the atheist headstones. I do not care to see all religious symbols removed from that public space.

 

I'm more worried about the NSA thing, the US giving billions to dictators and bad governments overseas, us deploying the military too much, corporate control of our politicians, our cops becoming militarized, and BSA making a really uncomfortable and badly tailored uniform. So, I'd probably just shrug and walk by it.

 

It wouldn't be the only one-sided view of the world my kids get. They are taught in school that we won WWII, but we all know the Russians had Hitler on the run before Pearl Harbor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sentinel947]

Since when did this politics forum only discuss things pertaining to Scouting? Also Thomas Jefferson, I just wanted to argue some history for no reason whatsoever. The turning point of the Eastern front in WW2 is generally regarded as the battle of Stalingrad, which took place in August 1942- Feb 1943. Pearl Harbor was December 7th 1941. The German invasion of Russia only began in June of 1941.

 

It's likely that the Russians would have won the Battle of Stalingrad and reversed the German momentum without American assistance, but it's factually incorrect to say the Russians had the Germans on the run 3 months into the war. But as a public school student, I can totally agree that our learning of history is slanted and unbalanced.

 

 

 

As for the article...why is this memorial needed now? We already have the Halocaust Museum and Memorial in D.C. I think that's enough.

[ThomasJefferson]

I stand corrected. Lecturing on history from memory often fails me.

[qwazse]

Well, it wasn't just Jews who were killed in the holocaust, but this memorial seems to only be about them.

 

By the way, what does this have to do with scouting?

Topics like this do come up around campfires. So it is nice to have a collection of opinions on the matter. At some point in their path toward Eagle, boys are asked to attend public meetings. Sometimes they do speak up. If they go on record, and the discussion happens to be about erecting a memorial, wouldn't it be nice to know that something you said may influence what they say?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, it wasn't just Jews who were killed in the holocaust, but this memorial seems to only be about them.

 

By the way, what does this have to do with scouting?

Then it would make sense to post a general article about monuments, not an obvious attempt to denigrate atheists. It's like a white supremacist posting an article about blacks committing crimes and pretending it's just to start a discussion on law enforcement.

[acco40]

First of all, the article makes no mention of atheists. However, the use of the Star of David was objected to by the Freedom from Religion Foundation. That is a foundation that works primarily with the isssue of separation of church and state (1st Amendment violations).

[Stosh]

First of all, the article makes no mention of atheists. However, the use of the Star of David was objected to by the Freedom from Religion Foundation. That is a foundation that works primarily with the isssue of separation of church and state (1st Amendment violations).

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." I love it when our Constitution gets interpreted and reinterpreted, and the re-re-interpreted once more.

[Pack18Alex]

The six pointed Star of David may be colloquially called a "Jewish Star" but it is NOT a religious symbol in any way shape or form. It is the symbol that is traditionally dated back to David's Reign (and presumably Solomon's as well), basically an ancient Israelite Heraldry symbol. Judaism, the religion of the Jewish People, dates make to the Kingdom of Judah, after the Unified Kingdom split into the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah. All recordings of the Second Temple period, etc., are from the Kingdom of Judah.

 

The Star of David is a recognized symbol of Jewish people-hood, both by Jews (hence the inclusion on the State of Israel's flag), and its enemies (the yellow star forced on Jewish Citizens during the Nazi German government and its vassal states).

 

Prohibiting a Star of David as a religious symbol or a state endorsement of religious is simply preposterous, it's a symbol with zero religious significance. When King David reigned, there were gentile inhabitants in his Kingdom (hence all the ancient Jewish laws governing treatment of gentiles within a Jewish Kingdom), and his son, King Solomon, had many wives from surrounding tribes/kingdoms, many of which were gentiles. It's a symbol of Jewish sovereignty and peoplehood, with no religious significance whatsoever.

 

And in the case of the Holocaust, Jewish peoplehood, and not Jewish religion, was under attack... so its inclusion serves a secular purpose, while showing an Eastern European Jews with side curls would not.

[Stosh]

The six pointed Star of David may be colloquially called a "Jewish Star" but it is NOT a religious symbol in any way shape or form. It is the symbol that is traditionally dated back to David's Reign (and presumably Solomon's as well), basically an ancient Israelite Heraldry symbol. Judaism, the religion of the Jewish People, dates make to the Kingdom of Judah, after the Unified Kingdom split into the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah. All recordings of the Second Temple period, etc., are from the Kingdom of Judah.

 

The Star of David is a recognized symbol of Jewish people-hood, both by Jews (hence the inclusion on the State of Israel's flag), and its enemies (the yellow star forced on Jewish Citizens during the Nazi German government and its vassal states).

 

Prohibiting a Star of David as a religious symbol or a state endorsement of religious is simply preposterous, it's a symbol with zero religious significance. When King David reigned, there were gentile inhabitants in his Kingdom (hence all the ancient Jewish laws governing treatment of gentiles within a Jewish Kingdom), and his son, King Solomon, had many wives from surrounding tribes/kingdoms, many of which were gentiles. It's a symbol of Jewish sovereignty and peoplehood, with no religious significance whatsoever.

 

And in the case of the Holocaust, Jewish peoplehood, and not Jewish religion, was under attack... so its inclusion serves a secular purpose, while showing an Eastern European Jews with side curls would not.

Or maybe there are certain groups of people out there that are jealous because they don't have a neatsy cool symbol. The Muslims, Christians, Jews and even Satanists have their symbols. Must be tough. If they don't have one then nobody gets one.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The six pointed Star of David may be colloquially called a "Jewish Star" but it is NOT a religious symbol in any way shape or form. It is the symbol that is traditionally dated back to David's Reign (and presumably Solomon's as well), basically an ancient Israelite Heraldry symbol. Judaism, the religion of the Jewish People, dates make to the Kingdom of Judah, after the Unified Kingdom split into the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah. All recordings of the Second Temple period, etc., are from the Kingdom of Judah.

 

The Star of David is a recognized symbol of Jewish people-hood, both by Jews (hence the inclusion on the State of Israel's flag), and its enemies (the yellow star forced on Jewish Citizens during the Nazi German government and its vassal states).

 

Prohibiting a Star of David as a religious symbol or a state endorsement of religious is simply preposterous, it's a symbol with zero religious significance. When King David reigned, there were gentile inhabitants in his Kingdom (hence all the ancient Jewish laws governing treatment of gentiles within a Jewish Kingdom), and his son, King Solomon, had many wives from surrounding tribes/kingdoms, many of which were gentiles. It's a symbol of Jewish sovereignty and peoplehood, with no religious significance whatsoever.

 

And in the case of the Holocaust, Jewish peoplehood, and not Jewish religion, was under attack... so its inclusion serves a secular purpose, while showing an Eastern European Jews with side curls would not.

Atheists have symbols; you may have noticed mine or ThomasJefferson's.

 

As for a star of david not being a religious symbol, the US military for one appears to disagree:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Veterans_Affairs_emblems_for_headstones_and_markers

[Brewmeister]

The six pointed Star of David may be colloquially called a "Jewish Star" but it is NOT a religious symbol in any way shape or form. It is the symbol that is traditionally dated back to David's Reign (and presumably Solomon's as well), basically an ancient Israelite Heraldry symbol. Judaism, the religion of the Jewish People, dates make to the Kingdom of Judah, after the Unified Kingdom split into the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah. All recordings of the Second Temple period, etc., are from the Kingdom of Judah.

 

The Star of David is a recognized symbol of Jewish people-hood, both by Jews (hence the inclusion on the State of Israel's flag), and its enemies (the yellow star forced on Jewish Citizens during the Nazi German government and its vassal states).

 

Prohibiting a Star of David as a religious symbol or a state endorsement of religious is simply preposterous, it's a symbol with zero religious significance. When King David reigned, there were gentile inhabitants in his Kingdom (hence all the ancient Jewish laws governing treatment of gentiles within a Jewish Kingdom), and his son, King Solomon, had many wives from surrounding tribes/kingdoms, many of which were gentiles. It's a symbol of Jewish sovereignty and peoplehood, with no religious significance whatsoever.

 

And in the case of the Holocaust, Jewish peoplehood, and not Jewish religion, was under attack... so its inclusion serves a secular purpose, while showing an Eastern European Jews with side curls would not.

As is correctly pointed out by Pack18Alex, the Star of David is not a religious symbol. That would be idol-worship. It is an identifier and, in this case, an identifier with legitimate historical context. As was mentioned in the comments of the article, arguing against the star in the design of the memorial is akin to arguing against a display of chains in a slavery memorial.

 

The irony in this demand by these anti-religious zealots is that the Nazis were also anti-religious--not just anti-Jewish. (However, the Nazi party could not attack Christianity directly as it did Judaism, although examples can be found, particularly against Catholicism early on.)

[Pack18Alex]

The six pointed Star of David may be colloquially called a "Jewish Star" but it is NOT a religious symbol in any way shape or form. It is the symbol that is traditionally dated back to David's Reign (and presumably Solomon's as well), basically an ancient Israelite Heraldry symbol. Judaism, the religion of the Jewish People, dates make to the Kingdom of Judah, after the Unified Kingdom split into the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah. All recordings of the Second Temple period, etc., are from the Kingdom of Judah.

 

The Star of David is a recognized symbol of Jewish people-hood, both by Jews (hence the inclusion on the State of Israel's flag), and its enemies (the yellow star forced on Jewish Citizens during the Nazi German government and its vassal states).

 

Prohibiting a Star of David as a religious symbol or a state endorsement of religious is simply preposterous, it's a symbol with zero religious significance. When King David reigned, there were gentile inhabitants in his Kingdom (hence all the ancient Jewish laws governing treatment of gentiles within a Jewish Kingdom), and his son, King Solomon, had many wives from surrounding tribes/kingdoms, many of which were gentiles. It's a symbol of Jewish sovereignty and peoplehood, with no religious significance whatsoever.

 

And in the case of the Holocaust, Jewish peoplehood, and not Jewish religion, was under attack... so its inclusion serves a secular purpose, while showing an Eastern European Jews with side curls would not.

The oldest Jewish Religious symbol, the Menorah (7 branch from the Temple, not the familiar 9 branch Chanukiah that comes out Chanukah Time) is a symbol of the Temple. A Torah Scroll would be a good one, usually depicted as an Ashkenzai Scroll unwound (see scrollk.org who uses this as their logo) works. A mezuzah cover would be a religious symbol of sorts. The Shield of David is a national symbol, not a religious one.

 

The Shield of David represents Jews from the Ultra-Orthodox to the atheist/agnostic Jew. It doesn't represent ANYTHING in the religion.

[fred johnson]

Wow. I was amazed at the article. A well meaning group is effectively white washing history. The Holocost WAS started as and continued primarily as an anti-semitic action. It WAS the "final solution" to the European Jewish problem. Nazis then used it to include the unwanted and those who opposed them including millions of Russion POWs.

 

It's insulting to even think of a Holocost memorial that does not include Jewish symbols. I'm proudly Catholic and have no offense to seeing those Jewish symbols used in such a setting.

 

It's not about the government endorsing a specific religion.

 

It's about telling the truth thru art and creating something meaningful that lasts.