Is the BSA required trainings/forms turning off/loosing people

[RandyPrice]

I hope my topic made sense but if not let me clarify. If I want to take the boys on a road trip I have to fill out all the paperwork on who's going, what kind of vehicle, insurance info, etc... also does everyone going (adults) have all the required training. I've had some parents initially seem interested in helping until they hear about all the training/paperwork that's required. Thoughts???

[Stosh]

First of all training for one's position in the unit is not such a bad idea. Would you want some guy doing surgery on you that doesn't have the training? Extreme example, but it does apply for a lot of other smaller issues. Why would we expect anyone, even the boys, to do a job that they are not trained to do. After all BSA is a training ground for boys. Surely one would expect qualified instructors leading the program.

 

All the other "stuff" is to keep having to talk to lawyers and judges. It's kinda like "due diligence". Would you want your son being driven around the countryside by someone who doesn't have a license or insurance? Is the vehicle a pickup truck where the boys are expected to ride in the back? Are there enough seat belts for the number of riders? etc.

 

Sure, there are a lot of common sense people out there that would check all that stuff out before a trip, but then not all people have common sense and even some of them do could have a tendency to cut some safety corners here and there.

 

I think it's a hassle, no doubt, but requiring everyone to cross all the t's and dot all the i's might just catch something for the 1% who cut one too many corners.

 

I just think of it as a self-protection issue. If I have done everything right, it protects me down the road. After all, I really don't think 2-deep leadership issues is to protect the scouts. But I really think it's in MY best interest to have backup when some scout with a beef with me goes and tells his parents I "touched" him improperly. If it comes down to your word against a kid's, you're gonna lose!

 

 

 

[qwazse]

Randy, let me answer this question in a little more detail: Yes!

[jr56]

Yes, I think all the hoops we have to jump through are turning some people off, and driving them away.

[kari_cardi]

Yes, I do. I think that the attention to safety and details also attracts some parents, and gives additional peace of mind.

 

I've heard that training resistance is especially a problem in Roman Catholic units where the volunteers have to do diocesan training along with BSA training.

[RandyPrice]

Thanks for the replies. I recently had a parent who was willing to help drive a group of boys to summer camp (> 5hrs away). When I started asking about her insurance limits, etc... She said well maybe I won't. I understand that the BSA is trying to Cover their butt or covers yours but as complicated as everything else is in life all this training/paperwork just turns people off, myself included.

 

[koolaidman]

Consider it an effort to "be prepared". Same reason you pack a poncho during a drought. Help at all?

[perdidochas]

I hope my topic made sense but if not let me clarify. If I want to take the boys on a road trip I have to fill out all the paperwork on who's going' date=' what kind of vehicle, insurance info, etc... also does everyone going (adults) have all the required training. I've had some parents initially seem interested in helping until they hear about all the training/paperwork that's required. Thoughts???[/quote']

 

I think the training is a dual edged sword. On one hand, it allows us to recruit more scouts, with the assurance that the leaders are checked out and know the rules. On the other hand, it is offputting to new leaders. To me, the bigger problem is the loss and slow processing of records by the Council. I've submitted a MBC form 4 times, and am not approved. This is despite having been a Scout leader with the Council for 7 yrs. When asked why, they told me they have no idea why I haven't been approved.

 

[Eagle92]

Can it be a pain in the buttocks, absolutely. But as other have stated it's important.

 

Can it be frustrating? Yep. When I did SM Fundamentals way back when, only useful thing was the paperwork section. Running meetings, Outdoor skills, etc was stuff I did in Scouts and had taught previously. Glad they allow a "test out" option for IOLS now b/c there are some folks who have the knowledge, skills, and abilities and don't need another weekend away from the family. One example I can give is the 3 time Philmont, Eagle Scout who was untrained because he didn;t do IOLS. Best example I can give is the Eagle Scout, former camp staffer, multiple outdoor MBC, WB 3 beader who, becasue he did not do IOLS, was considered "Untrained."

 

Can you get really ticked off when the training records are screwed up, or, as was my case, the information you were told by the national SCOUTNET director was incorrect and your records did not follow you around. YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT . Yep I was told SCOUTNET would allow records to follow you around, only to learn 12 years later "nope, it never did." And trust me, you don;t want to tell the PTC staffer that according to council, he is not "trained" in the subject he taught at PTC.

[Scouter99]

Thanks for the replies. I recently had a parent who was willing to help drive a group of boys to summer camp (> 5hrs away). When I started asking about her insurance limits, etc... She said well maybe I won't. I understand that the BSA is trying to Cover their butt or covers yours but as complicated as everything else is in life all this training/paperwork just turns people off, myself included.

 

Then she probably doesn't have insurance and she should be in jail.

[King Ding Dong]

Thanks for the replies. I recently had a parent who was willing to help drive a group of boys to summer camp (> 5hrs away). When I started asking about her insurance limits, etc... She said well maybe I won't. I understand that the BSA is trying to Cover their butt or covers yours but as complicated as everything else is in life all this training/paperwork just turns people off, myself included.

 

Then she probably doesn't have insurance and she should be in jail.

I was thinking the same thing. Like all the people that wanted to rent my house but threw a fit when the application asked for their checking account number. Huh? It is printed on every check you have ever written.

[Basementdweller]

So new parent is going to send scout off to a campout with some unknown to them adult.......

 

Training, even weak as it is, gives them a small guarantee that their scout will be returned in one piece.

 

tour permits that require Adults to have basic understanding of CPR, water safety and first aid protect everyone.

 

 

Yes it is a pain, I don't like it either....But is part of being an adult and serving my youth.

[qwazse]

Thanks for the replies. I recently had a parent who was willing to help drive a group of boys to summer camp (> 5hrs away). When I started asking about her insurance limits, etc... She said well maybe I won't. I understand that the BSA is trying to Cover their butt or covers yours but as complicated as everything else is in life all this training/paperwork just turns people off, myself included.

 

Then she probably doesn't have insurance and she should be in jail.

Some people have a genuine fear of "Big Brother" getting into their business. If they watch the news more than 2 hours a day, they'll be utterly petrified of disclosing common info like this. Or, they are sincerely tired of digging up info for what they thought was a simple favor. (If you could look at our family desk, you'd understand why that becomes such a task. (And, no I'm not gonna send you a picture because you might be able to scan a # and use it against my constitutional rights!!)

 

Of course, some of those people are actually bucking the system. But we are off-putting to many to protect ourselves from the few.

[kari_cardi]

I hope my topic made sense but if not let me clarify. If I want to take the boys on a road trip I have to fill out all the paperwork on who's going' date=' what kind of vehicle, insurance info, etc... also does everyone going (adults) have all the required training. I've had some parents initially seem interested in helping until they hear about all the training/paperwork that's required. Thoughts???[/quote']

 

I think the training is a dual edged sword. On one hand, it allows us to recruit more scouts, with the assurance that the leaders are checked out and know the rules. On the other hand, it is offputting to new leaders. To me, the bigger problem is the loss and slow processing of records by the Council. I've submitted a MBC form 4 times, and am not approved. This is despite having been a Scout leader with the Council for 7 yrs. When asked why, they told me they have no idea why I haven't been approved.

I recently learned that the MBC apps in our district fall into a black hole created by a district volunteer who doesn't like to do paperwork. Wonderful. So much disregard for the volunteers willing to step up and the work I've put into recruiting them, not to mention the scouts looking for a counselor in our district. The person in question was just awarded a Silver Beaver which makes me cynical about any change happening soon.

[qwazse]

So new parent is going to send scout off to a campout with some unknown to them adult.......

 

Training, even weak as it is, gives them a small guarantee that their scout will be returned in one piece.

 

tour permits that require Adults to have basic understanding of CPR, water safety and first aid protect everyone.

 

 

Yes it is a pain, I don't like it either....But is part of being an adult and serving my youth.

I'm not that bothered about the training issue. But ...

 

The MBC paperwork that they lost multiple times.

The CPR class that I took at University of Scouting, including the test I passed, but never get a certification.

The attempt to get us to fill out a tour plan every time we met outside of our meeting place.

The massive medical form -- seems to be the only thing growing in the BSA.

The online tour plan that my youth leaders cannot access.

The monkey-shine about no tour plan, no insurance.

The revised national camp school guideline that says lifeguards shouldn't have whistles.

The "blue card or bust" mentality.

 

Folks, these are NEW things that my SM and his committee of 3 never had to deal with. If they did, would they have been scouters? These were can-do people -- journeymen, business men, college department chairmen, senior care providers, church builders, friends of jungle missionaries. If someone said "Wait, there's a form for that" at every turn and half the time nobody really cares about that form, do you think they would have maintained their Christian character?