Is Cub Scouts too long?

[Pack18Alex]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

Council rule perhaps? I was informed by my wife from training that if I go with them on a Camp Out, I can't share a tent with my wife. So the girls all Share a Tent, my wife needs to tent with another female leader, and I should be in another tent? And unclear if my son is even permitted to be there...

 

Much easier to do our Family Campouts as BSA Camps, and someone in your family needs to be affiliated with our unit... it can be your son in the Pack, or a parent on the committee, but someone needs to affiliate with us so we can follow our guidelines.

 

Or my wife was told incorrect policies by someone that doesn't know them, who knows.

[King Ding Dong]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

Our BSA council has the same mom and dad can't tent together rule. I like to call it the No Marriage Rule or the Ricky and Lucy Rule. Total idiocy.

[perdidochas]

I think the mom and dad can't tent together rule is a local council rule. We don't have it.

[fred johnson]

As a former CM, with a son beginning again in Tigers this year, and a current ASM for a troop in which my older son is beginning his 2nd year (almost done with 1st class)... I'm living boht sides of this issue...

 

If I was king of BSA for a day, I would make the following changes: 1) get rid of Lions, 1st grade is soon enough to start. 2) Make Webelos 1 year instead of 2, and make itthe beginning part of Boy Scouts instead of the end of Cub Scouts.

 

The big change this would bring is that Boy Scouts is a "go at your own pace" program, unlike Cubbies that is a "do it all together in the same year" program. Let the older kids advance at their own speed and do their own things. It would also reduce the amount of years spent in Cubland, and thus decrease leader burnout with the younger kids.

FULLY AGREE. Webelos should be the start of a Boy Scout program. Not the end of Cub Scouts. It should be about growing and not about shopping for a troop. One challenge is you would need to know the troops at the start, not at the end.

[Moggie]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

Daft question from across the pond - how old are your cubs? K- 20 means nothing to me really.

I'm taking cubs camping this weekend, we don't take parents. Me, two assistants, a cook and 23 cubs aged 8 - 10yrs

Cheers

 

Gareth

[perdidochas]

An interesting idea about integrating webs more with the troop. At the web II fall camporee where I noticed the older boys complaining about the obnoxious webs. They were joining the troop in six months. Does that six months add some maturity ? Does the whole crossing over part add a bit of seriousness to them ? Interesting thoughts on separating the webs from the Tigers because my son has been very nurturing to the younger cubs and maybe in the next six months to a year would make a good den chief for tigers. Rather than separate them, how about have the Webelos use their skills from the Forestry badge and lead the mini hike talking about trees and help the tigers make their leaf rubbings. Seems to me that approach would help the transition to BS better than separating them and also help show the new parents what we are trying to achieve in scouts.

Just the way it happens. Every year in our troop, I've listened to the older Scouts moan about how wild and uncontrollable the new Crossovers are. I've done this 4 times now, so I've had a chance to hear two groups of Scouts who were the "wild crossovers" complain about the new "wild crossovers." The first group of "wild crossovers" are now pretty much the leaders of the troop. (young enough to be still active, old enough to have been around enough to know what's expected).

[blw2]

I think the mom and dad can't tent together rule is a local council rule. We don't have it.

can't say I've ever heard that one either......

[King Ding Dong]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

In general a boy starts kindergarten at age 5 is a Tiger at 6, Wolf 7, Bear 8, Webelos 9, Webelos II 10. There are exceptions because not all Packs are grade based, some parents hold their children back a year from school, some private schools operate differently, each state has its own cut off birthdate for starting Kindergarten, home schooled kids are a mystery to me. My own son started kindergarten at 4 because he was bored with preschool, was very tall (at the time) and met the age cut off at the time.

 

What you are doing would not be allowed in the BSA. I doubt any leader would want a 1:5 ratio camping at that age. To many cats to herd.

 

Some tall fences, moats, guard dogs, armed security forces, extraction helicopters, predator drones, pepper spray, tazers, and lots of Valium or Zanex and we might consider it.

 

Joking aside, I know some grade school teachers who could pull it off. Most of us parents are just not that good managing herds of small boys.

[DeanRx]

I think the mom and dad can't tent together rule is a local council rule. We don't have it.

If we have it... the wife and I (plus every other married registered leader in the unit) has broken that "rule" for the past 5 years.... I'd double check w/ your council on that... sounds like someone has a post-doc from UMSU (Univ of Making Stuff Up).

[King Ding Dong]

I think the mom and dad can't tent together rule is a local council rule. We don't have it.

Not made up. Was confirmed by district training staff. They said there was a push to change it though. At some point in the past there was probably some incident at a cub camp and some moron SE decided to solve the problem with a stupid rule. It apparently only applies to council property. Everyone ignores it. How could they enforce it ? Send the DE around unzipping tents at 2 AM ?

[TSS_Chris]

I'm a CM and have served as a DL, so this question touched a nerve with me. I've been thinking about this topic for a couple of days because I'm conflicted. On one hand, I can see the wear and tear the program takes on the leaders and even the boys. On the other hand, I can see the eager young parents who would like to get their kids started as early as they can start Tee Ball, Soccer or another sport. I've been mulling this over for a few days, and tonight, while I was mowing the lawn it hit me.

 

The problem with Cub Scouting is that it is full of broken promises, for the boys, parents and especially for the leaders.

 

The boys get enticed in with posters of boys doing cool stuff, but the actual rank program is a dull, unchallenging repetition of their school work.

 

Parents, meanwhile, get enticed by the stated goals of Cub Scouting, which the program doesn't really teach as laid out. Parents also get the constant barrage of requests to help and fundraising. As others have noted on this forum, at the end of Cub Scouts, you end up with passive Scouts who are not prepared for the boy leadership that should be present in Boy Scouts.

 

Meanwhile, as a leader, we're told to "Keep it Simple, Make it Fun", yet the program is anything but simple and fun. Being a DL reminds me a lot of playing D&D: The information you need is scattered through multiple obscure volumes with complex rules. You spend most of your time flipping pages and scribbling notes, instead of slaying dragons.

 

Meanwhile as CM and CC, you've got requirements in the JTE and Scouter Knot programs that aren't reflected at all in the boys requirements. Same with the "fun" things like the Pinewood Derby, and the "not fun" things like tour permits, fundraising and recruiting new volunteers.

 

I think the BSA needs to totally rework the Cub Scout program to make it more like the marketing materials.

 

If it were up to me, I would:

• Get rid of most of the book work in the ranks, and make sure that each rank requirement teaches or reinforces a core value. For the Lions and Tigers, this should be just participatory, Wolves and Bears should be setting goals and measuring their achievements, and Webelos should be helping to plan the event and/or teach the younger scouts.
  
• Have a parental requirement for each rank. You want your son to earn his Bobcat? Then you need to take YPT. You want your son to get his Wolf? Then you need to run a meeting or trip. You want your son to get his AOL? Then you need to have served in a pack leadership role for at least 1 year.
  
• Make the fun things in Cub Scouting a core part of the ranks. There are plenty of teachable moments in the Pinewood Derby, Blue & Gold Banquet, and even selling Popcorn. Why aren't these being used? How can service hours, camp attendance, and fitness be requirements for the units, but not required for the scouts?
  
• Give the leaders truly helpful meeting plans with all the basics on one page. If more details are needed, give those on supplemental pages that are part of the plans. Make advancement easy to track, and guarantee parental participation.
  

[King Ding Dong]

I'm a CM and have served as a DL, so this question touched a nerve with me. I've been thinking about this topic for a couple of days because I'm conflicted. On one hand, I can see the wear and tear the program takes on the leaders and even the boys. On the other hand, I can see the eager young parents who would like to get their kids started as early as they can start Tee Ball, Soccer or another sport. I've been mulling this over for a few days, and tonight, while I was mowing the lawn it hit me.

 

The problem with Cub Scouting is that it is full of broken promises, for the boys, parents and especially for the leaders.

 

The boys get enticed in with posters of boys doing cool stuff, but the actual rank program is a dull, unchallenging repetition of their school work.

 

Parents, meanwhile, get enticed by the stated goals of Cub Scouting, which the program doesn't really teach as laid out. Parents also get the constant barrage of requests to help and fundraising. As others have noted on this forum, at the end of Cub Scouts, you end up with passive Scouts who are not prepared for the boy leadership that should be present in Boy Scouts.

 

Meanwhile, as a leader, we're told to "Keep it Simple, Make it Fun", yet the program is anything but simple and fun. Being a DL reminds me a lot of playing D&D: The information you need is scattered through multiple obscure volumes with complex rules. You spend most of your time flipping pages and scribbling notes, instead of slaying dragons.

 

Meanwhile as CM and CC, you've got requirements in the JTE and Scouter Knot programs that aren't reflected at all in the boys requirements. Same with the "fun" things like the Pinewood Derby, and the "not fun" things like tour permits, fundraising and recruiting new volunteers.

 

I think the BSA needs to totally rework the Cub Scout program to make it more like the marketing materials.

 

If it were up to me, I would:

• Get rid of most of the book work in the ranks, and make sure that each rank requirement teaches or reinforces a core value. For the Lions and Tigers, this should be just participatory, Wolves and Bears should be setting goals and measuring their achievements, and Webelos should be helping to plan the event and/or teach the younger scouts.
  
• Have a parental requirement for each rank. You want your son to earn his Bobcat? Then you need to take YPT. You want your son to get his Wolf? Then you need to run a meeting or trip. You want your son to get his AOL? Then you need to have served in a pack leadership role for at least 1 year.
  
• Make the fun things in Cub Scouting a core part of the ranks. There are plenty of teachable moments in the Pinewood Derby, Blue & Gold Banquet, and even selling Popcorn. Why aren't these being used? How can service hours, camp attendance, and fitness be requirements for the units, but not required for the scouts?
  
• Give the leaders truly helpful meeting plans with all the basics on one page. If more details are needed, give those on supplemental pages that are part of the plans. Make advancement easy to track, and guarantee parental participation.
  

I really, really like the parental involvement requirement. Outstanding.

 

Unfortunately this will go over about as well as it did for Jerry Maguire.

 

Dont tell me to just do this stuff in the book, tell my how to do it and where I can get all this stuff. Tell me how to make it fun.

 

Many leaders and parents are on their first time through and don't realize some of these tasks are the building blocks for eagle required work. Point it out for them so they don't see it as busy work.

[TSS_Chris]

I'm a CM and have served as a DL, so this question touched a nerve with me. I've been thinking about this topic for a couple of days because I'm conflicted. On one hand, I can see the wear and tear the program takes on the leaders and even the boys. On the other hand, I can see the eager young parents who would like to get their kids started as early as they can start Tee Ball, Soccer or another sport. I've been mulling this over for a few days, and tonight, while I was mowing the lawn it hit me.

 

The problem with Cub Scouting is that it is full of broken promises, for the boys, parents and especially for the leaders.

 

The boys get enticed in with posters of boys doing cool stuff, but the actual rank program is a dull, unchallenging repetition of their school work.

 

Parents, meanwhile, get enticed by the stated goals of Cub Scouting, which the program doesn't really teach as laid out. Parents also get the constant barrage of requests to help and fundraising. As others have noted on this forum, at the end of Cub Scouts, you end up with passive Scouts who are not prepared for the boy leadership that should be present in Boy Scouts.

 

Meanwhile, as a leader, we're told to "Keep it Simple, Make it Fun", yet the program is anything but simple and fun. Being a DL reminds me a lot of playing D&D: The information you need is scattered through multiple obscure volumes with complex rules. You spend most of your time flipping pages and scribbling notes, instead of slaying dragons.

 

Meanwhile as CM and CC, you've got requirements in the JTE and Scouter Knot programs that aren't reflected at all in the boys requirements. Same with the "fun" things like the Pinewood Derby, and the "not fun" things like tour permits, fundraising and recruiting new volunteers.

 

I think the BSA needs to totally rework the Cub Scout program to make it more like the marketing materials.

 

If it were up to me, I would:

• Get rid of most of the book work in the ranks, and make sure that each rank requirement teaches or reinforces a core value. For the Lions and Tigers, this should be just participatory, Wolves and Bears should be setting goals and measuring their achievements, and Webelos should be helping to plan the event and/or teach the younger scouts.
  
• Have a parental requirement for each rank. You want your son to earn his Bobcat? Then you need to take YPT. You want your son to get his Wolf? Then you need to run a meeting or trip. You want your son to get his AOL? Then you need to have served in a pack leadership role for at least 1 year.
  
• Make the fun things in Cub Scouting a core part of the ranks. There are plenty of teachable moments in the Pinewood Derby, Blue & Gold Banquet, and even selling Popcorn. Why aren't these being used? How can service hours, camp attendance, and fitness be requirements for the units, but not required for the scouts?
  
• Give the leaders truly helpful meeting plans with all the basics on one page. If more details are needed, give those on supplemental pages that are part of the plans. Make advancement easy to track, and guarantee parental participation.
  

@KDD: I've got a red white and blue knot on my uniform, and I see a lot of the existing requirements as busy work.

 

The Food Pyramid requirements are my top offenders. This gets beaten into the kids' heads at school, and they come to Scouts to do the exact same projects. These could be replaced with a hands-on activity like tasting different kinds of apples, or using the pinewood derby scale to measure out the amount of sugar in each Scout's favorite food and discussing their findings among the den.

 

Your "Don't tell me to just do this stuff in the book, tell my how to do it and where I can get all this stuff. Tell me how to make it fun.", helped me better understand the goal of the leader materials. It should be: "Tell me what I need and how to do all this stuff in the book, so I can concentrate on making it fun."

[Eagle92]

One resource for doing the cool stuff is the Cub Scout Leader How To Books, especially the older ones. Just be careful with them as some of the stuff mentioned in it is no longer allowed by the BSA, i.e. the Tuna Can Stoves are now no longer allowed. Also talk to the older, experienced Cub Scout Leaders. I'm fortunate in that we have one in my district who's infamous quote when talking to a poor performing DE was "I have forgotten more about Cub Scouts than you ever learned and I still know more than you." When I first became a PD for day camp, she was one of my reviewers for the program.

 

Me personally I think all the different 'bling," or as BP called it "swank," i.e. belt loops, LNT Award, Messangers of Peace, ad nauseum, combined with all the rules and regs, i.e. G2SS, G2A etc, have overcomplicated the program.

 

I like what my pack has done, focus on the basics; having fun, learning, and rank advancement. If we get the extras, fine and dandy. But we focus on fun, learning, and earning the ranks.

 

As for the repetitiveness of the program, when I look at the current Wolf, Bear, and Webelos books, I see a lot of the same materials I used way back when with some minor updates. It may have worked when Cub Scouts was a 3 year program, but not as a 4.5 - 5 year program.

[blw2]

Good post, TSSChris

Broken promises for sure!

 

I like the idea to encourage parental involvement, but that is a sticky one. Don't punish the boy for the parent, and all of that..... Some parents just aren't cut out for it, and have no interest.....

 

What resonates with me is your suggestion to clean up the program. KDD's comment, "Don't tell me to just do this stuff in the book, tell my how to do it and where I can get all this stuff. Tell me how to make it fun." I'm ok at making it fun, but no doubt could be better. Some of our leaders just don't even try. I know that when I look at the lesson plans and the how to books, my eyes generally gloss over. I'm sure there's good stuff in there somewhere, but I can't see it. from what I have seen this must generally be the case. Seems like the tendency that I have seen is to just focus the meetings on the scout's book achievement or on a belt loop. Those are spelled out in a do a, b, c format. Simple enough....... just not fun enough.

 

KDD brings up another point. "Many leaders and parents are on their first time through and don't realize some of these tasks are the building blocks for eagle required work. Point it out for them so they don't see it as busy work. " How do we do that if we don't know ourselves?

You recruit a leader for Tiger den, that may end up floating all the way through WEBELOS. Now her heart is in the right place, but she has no earthly idea how any of this connects to anything. She doesn't know the program, so she ends up doing her best to wing it and float through.....

 

Good points brought up here for sure.....

repetitive material

boring material

no sense of connection to future requirements

no sense of connections to things done last year

no preparation for future ranks

poor training and leader guide materials

too complicated

eagerness of new boys and parents is squashed