Is Cub Scouts too long?

[Eagle92]

A Couple of comments.

 

1) It is entirely possible for one set of folks on a committee to run multiple units. I've seen this with a SCOUTREACH program where the committee was the same for 3 or 4 different units, and I've seen it with A troop/crew combination. Is it easy, no people should really "wear one hat" (HAHAHAHA pot calling the kettle black )but it is possible and allowed by BSA

 

2) In some countries, that is how scouting is done, i.e. one committee supports all the units. If I remember correcetly, and one of our Brit members please tell me if I am wrong, A scout groups will consist of Cubs, Scouts, and Explorers. The group leadership is essentially a committee that supports the pack, troop, and crew. Some units have been around longer than some councils have been around.

 

3) Because of the small unit nature of GSUSA, their troops are essentially the size of BSA patrols, of course more activities can be done. BUT becasue they are so small, there is not enough room for everyone and some girls are denied the program.

[Basementdweller]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

Alex even cub scouting is supposed to be about the boys.

 

"Because the Boy Scout Leaders are upset that we aren't showing up in 5th grade after marching our boys through 4.5 years of Scouting" That is why Cub scouting should be shorter in length.

 

So what your saying, is that You are not interested in your boy being in boy scouting because your not permitted to be SM immediately when your son joins....

 

Most cub scout parents need to be deprogramed before they should be involved directly in the boy scouting program......A year is an appropriate amount of time, but it varies per person.

 

I was not involved in the troop for 2 years after my son crossed over........I was second adult on outings during that period, but I did not interfere with the Old SM running the unit.

[Pack18Alex]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

Okay, down here, our Cub Scouting is camping intensive, and in a short window when the weather is great. And they increasingly want us to set up the Boy Scout style Camp Sites, but with a single patrol model for cooking. And cub aged boys can't really cook without a ton of supervision (and certainly not for 40 people).

 

It's a fun awesome program, but it's nothing like being a Troop level leader. So are we tired and burnt out of Cub Scouts, sure, but it's a ton of fun and we're (for the most part), enjoying it. It's just that after doing that for a few years, we're not ready to jump right in to the troop.

 

That's why I feel a unified committee structure would be absolutely terrific... Those that want front line work with the boys can be Den Leaders, those that was to Scoutmaster can Scoutmaster, larger groups could have a Troop age parent that didn't find Troop responsibilities that they liked to be Cubmaster, etc. The way it is structured now, while a Troop family could volunteer with the Pack and vice-versa, it isn't the norm, or even encouraged. If Unit #X was divided into Pack/Troop/Crew, and parents were encouraged to volunteer where ever they were interested, you'd have less resentment of the Cub Scout program from the Troop leaders.

 

The leaders that love Cubs aren't necessarily interested in Troops, and the dedicated Troop leaders may put in decades of work with the Troop, and resent the Cub Program that they have little to do with.

[Pack18Alex]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

But I love the Cub Scout program, and wear 10 hats with it. When the Troop level comes, I do NOT want this level of involvement. It doesn't interest me. I think that the program will be great for my son, but I do not want to run the Troop the way I've been rnning the Pack. Other people that did not do front line leadership in Cubs can take that over, and maybe I'll find an interest in Troop leadership.

 

Is it possible for me to want my son to be a Boy Scout without my wanting to be Scoutmaster? After 5 years of Cub level leadership, including getting my Den ready to cross over, why can't my Cub leadership (and handling our Troop a ready made new Scout Patrol) be seen as contributing to the Troop instead of taking away from it?

 

The Troop leaders think we are burning out... that burning out is where your fresh blood comes from. See your Cub Den Leaders as your recruiting/training process, instead of burnt out people that really should be managing Camp Card sales.

[Basementdweller]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

If you look at many of my previous post...

 

My home unit functions like that......

 

The troop committee and the Pack committee are essentially the same.. Our webelos are so integrated into the troop that the parents have problems understanding why they need to fill out an application when the boys cross over.

[Pack18Alex]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

That may be the direction we take this in... One committee, conceivably with identical positions. The Units will have their own leader (SM/CM), and Patrol/Den Leadership (ASM/DL), and take it from there. My concern is that right now the Pack is bigger than the Troop, and if the Troop runs as an adjunct to the Pack, the boys will lose interest. OTOH, if the Webelos become more integrated with the Troop... well, that would be ideal, I'm just not sure how to arrange that.

 

If you are running things jointly, I could arrange more joint responsibilities.

 

How do you handle finances if you run it jointly? How do you handle gear?

[MattR]

Pack18Alex, I like your ideas of creating some more distinct levels. Pairing the pack and troop wouldn't work so well in my area. We bring in Webelos from a couple of different packs. We roughly have a pack per elementary school and not as many troops. Another option might be splitting off Webelos from cubs. I think that was the original intent. Part of the time they could be a den and part of the time they could be a patrol in a troop (when the weather is nice and mom or dad want to camp). That would be a better transition. The webs could join the troop for day events and a couple of campouts a year when the weather is nice and still do pinewood derby and crafts. The adults would have much less to organize (hopefully) as web den leaders. The troops would have PORs set to be automatic den chiefs.

[Pack18Alex]

Pack18Alex, I like your ideas of creating some more distinct levels. Pairing the pack and troop wouldn't work so well in my area. We bring in Webelos from a couple of different packs. We roughly have a pack per elementary school and not as many troops. Another option might be splitting off Webelos from cubs. I think that was the original intent. Part of the time they could be a den and part of the time they could be a patrol in a troop (when the weather is nice and mom or dad want to camp). That would be a better transition. The webs could join the troop for day events and a couple of campouts a year when the weather is nice and still do pinewood derby and crafts. The adults would have much less to organize (hopefully) as web den leaders. The troops would have PORs set to be automatic den chiefs.

For those of you following the proper approach... Packs and Troops are distinct, my proposal doesn't really solve them directly...

 

What I would say in your Case:

 

The Elementary School's CO Charters a Cub Pack and Webelos Patrol. The Webelos Patrol does their Pack stuff with the Cub Pack. Since you don't have a Joint Webelos Patrol / Scout Troop under the CO, the GTSS should provide guidelines for visiting Webelos Patrols, which should be different from a unified Scouting setup.

 

I think that with Lions you need some separation for Webelos. I believe a big part of why I have dropoff problems is that we get a ton of Tigers and they interact with the Webelos too much. They should be "older mature Cubs" to look up to.

 

My point was NOT that a CO needs to run all the units, but that all the units under a CO share a committee (unless they choose to form different committees).

 

Interestingly, a Boy Scout Troop is the sum of its patrols. According to my training, a Cub Scout Pack consists of all the Dens at a CO. So if one CO were running Dens at 3 schools, that CO can't have 3 Packs, they are one pack.

 

Agreed on the Pinewood Derby/Crafts...

 

On paper, the Webelos have more autonomy than the Cubs. In practice, at least here, they are Cub Scouts wearing Boy Scout Uniforms. When I was a lad, the Webelos emblem went where the Tiger one does now... and apparently where the Lion Badge once went... But ideally, the Webelos are either off doing activity pins, or visiting a Troop as a Patrol or showing leadership when the visit the Pack as a Patrol. Ideally, Webelos have 2 Patrol meetings + 1 Troop Meeting + 1 Pack Meeting each month.

[perdidochas]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

As a former Cub leader, now a Boy Scout leader, I realized it was too long at the beginning of my 4th year as a Den Leader (and an additional year as an involved parent). Not sure if the Cub leaders chiming in have been in the program long enough to burn out. IMHO, Boy Scout leaders think it's too long, because we experienced it. My last year with the Pack, i was absolutely burned out, and knew I had to get out soon, because I was snarling at all the Wolves, as they milled around the Family Life Center (fancy name for church gym, where Wolves through Webelos met).

[Pack18Alex]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

perdidochas,

 

So why were you burnt out? Was it the Den Leader work or was it other work? I actually really enjoy the Den Leader side. When we started our Dens late this past year and ran every week, it was a bit of a burn out. When we got formal Pack Meetings going and it became every other week, I enjoyed it much more. If the Cubmaster was distinct from the Den Leader, you had Den Chiefs at all levels, the the Committee handled the responsibilities correctly, I think that Den Leaders would be way less of a burn out.

 

Also, I'm not sure that Den Leaders are necessarily what you want in Troop Leadership. It's a VERY specialized role that has no counterpart in the Troop/Crew programs... also, Tiger, Cub, and Webelos level are very different (part of why I'm bummed they got rid of the three Den Leader Knots that recognized this). I mean, Cubmaster - done right - is decent training for Scoutmaster, only you drop your MC role and become about training the boys to MC. But Den Leader? As a Den Leader I am purchasing supplies, planning the schedule, teaching the boys, and then letting them do their project. None of that trains me to be an ASM assigned to a patrol (the closest analog). I'm okay with burning our Cub Scout Den leaders if it results in boys ready to join troops.

 

Also, if Pack/Troop shared a Committee and the Committee was mostly Troop parents, there might be less pressure on the Cub Scout Packs to act like Boy Scout Troops.

 

When I was a Cub, we didn't camp. The Webelos, if you could find a leader to keep the program alive, might camp once or twice. My Pack did 3 Campouts last year, which was light, have five planned for next year (plus a Webelos one), and in the past did four. That's somewhat typical in our area.

 

If you want boys to spend more time in the Troop (or Troop/Crew) than in the Pack, the solution isn't to cut the Pack time, but to revisit the program so that Cubs is less standalone and more training for Boy Scouts... I think unifying their management would do that... when Cubbing started, it was a Den Chief (Boy Scout) with a Den Mother assisting (supplies, etc) getting younger boys ready for Scouting. Now it's this giant top heavy parent run monstrosity that isn't getting boys ready for the Troop, because we expect them to go from vacationers on Campouts to Patrol members in one year...

 

Separating Webelos might help dramatically.... perhaps even ditching the Belt Loops/Pins from them... down here at least, Loops/Pins have moved from "supplemental" material to the CORE material. I see boys running around with tons of Belt Loops on their uniform, I rarely see an Arrowhead on the uniform (which were coveted when I was a boy).

[perdidochas]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

The burn out was from Den Leader work. I did Tiger Cub (1yr), Bear (1yr), and Webelos (2 1/2 yrs), as well as a very active Wolf parent before becoming a DL. I agree that DLs aren't a good choice for ASM at first. I spent three years as a Troop committee member (Advancement coord) before becoming an ASM for that reason. I needed to learn to step back.

[Basementdweller]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

I gots to know

 

Alex how many years have you been involved in scouting as an adult????

[Basementdweller]

Pack18Alex, I like your ideas of creating some more distinct levels. Pairing the pack and troop wouldn't work so well in my area. We bring in Webelos from a couple of different packs. We roughly have a pack per elementary school and not as many troops. Another option might be splitting off Webelos from cubs. I think that was the original intent. Part of the time they could be a den and part of the time they could be a patrol in a troop (when the weather is nice and mom or dad want to camp). That would be a better transition. The webs could join the troop for day events and a couple of campouts a year when the weather is nice and still do pinewood derby and crafts. The adults would have much less to organize (hopefully) as web den leaders. The troops would have PORs set to be automatic den chiefs.

I wish I have multiple packs feeding our troop......then hitting my max troop size would be easy.

[blw2]

I'm a cub leader, starting our Bear or third year...... & I chimed in that it is too long.

We have way too many leaders on committee that checked out a long time ago. In almost every case, it seems that it's some time in the 3rd or 4th year that they start smoldering.... then by the time their oldest boys crosses to a troop, they have checked out and are more of a hindrance to the committee during their tenure for their younger boys.

Honestly, I think the burn out if from dealing with the adults than the boys, but it's there.

[MattR]

Pack18Alex, I like your ideas of creating some more distinct levels. Pairing the pack and troop wouldn't work so well in my area. We bring in Webelos from a couple of different packs. We roughly have a pack per elementary school and not as many troops. Another option might be splitting off Webelos from cubs. I think that was the original intent. Part of the time they could be a den and part of the time they could be a patrol in a troop (when the weather is nice and mom or dad want to camp). That would be a better transition. The webs could join the troop for day events and a couple of campouts a year when the weather is nice and still do pinewood derby and crafts. The adults would have much less to organize (hopefully) as web den leaders. The troops would have PORs set to be automatic den chiefs.

BD, it's not that every web in few packs always come to my troop. It sort of shifts around. Sometimes it's one troop, sometimes a couple. It's a process that starts about now. Historically we've taken webs from 7 or 8 packs, but usually they mostly come from 1 or 2 a year. Different people want different things. When we tell people that 95% of our scouts get Eagle after it's too late to wear the patch, many go elsewhere. So I think keeping the Web dens autonomous so they can try out a few different troops is a good thing. We try and get the webelos to join us on two campouts.