Is Cub Scouts too long?

[qwazse]

Man I hate family camping...........

 

Parents think it is social time......I finally got them to stop bringing alcohol to camp....then they sit around the campfire while the boys are vandalizing the camp...... The siblings girls being all catty with each other and all the drama.....

 

Parents up till 2 am playing cards and being loud the same crew failing to get up and perform their breakfast duties.......Then one den leader decides it is ok for the boys to make their own pancakes.........They made a mess to the point I ended up loading the stove and fly into the truck to run to the car wash..... The last time they will use troop gear for a camp out.

 

Then the fishing, Old SM and I spend 4 hours baiting hooks and untangling lines while the parents lounge around the campfire or run to town for starbucks, It is a 40 minute drive one way.

 

I was embarrassed to be associated with the Pack.

BD, sounds like the group who camped next to our pack one summer. We almost had them kicked out after one night. Camp director read them the riot act and that was that.

 

They were lucky. Had I known the CD then as well as I do now, she would have gotten a phone call at midnight and they would have been gone at 1 am.

[fred johnson]

Ya know ... The above quote ... compete with soccer and baseball. I fully 100% disagree with that. What we have now are many programs competing for the same kids starting in kindergarten and 1st grade. Then, families discover it's too much. So they need to drop something. Scouts is often the first to be dropped because it looks the least structured.

 

I say, let them try baseball and soccer in K & 1st grade. Let those be the small kid activities with heavy parent involvement. Stop associating scouts with the smallest kids. Stop having such a young program that it becomes parent required.

 

Let Cub Scouts start in 2nd grade (or 3rd for all I care ... I think that's when my kids were ready.)

[fred johnson]

Another related issue.... parents receive their 1st joining invite in K or 1st grade. So then they really don't even think about it in 2nd grade or after.

[jr56]

Yes, I call it Cub Scout burnout. By the time the kids are ready to join Boy Scouts, the parents are so sick of the intense involvement, they bail and take their kid with them. They don't get the message that Boy Scouts is supposed to be a different program.

 

[Brewmeister]

An alternative title: Does Cub Scouts start too early?

1st grade is ok, but 2 years of Webelos is 1 too many. My son figured out in the summer camp after Bear year as a new Webelos. Fortunately his birthday aligned with being able to join a troop at the end of 4th grade so he got out after one year.

[Pack18Alex]

Integrate K-12... you can solve this. I have problems with GSUSA's program, but their structure is informative:

 

My wife is a Girl Scout Troop leader, in their program, they have two general "options."

 

Option 1: Single Level Troop, you take your daughter and her friends, and year after year you bridge to the next level, think a Cub Scout Tiger Den walking through Eagle generally with the same leaders. These Troops don't acquire gear or any permanence, but they have fun, and they use Council/Service Unit gear/events. Their service unit offers a "Mall Campout" and a "Movie Theatre Lock In" and other stuff... all the things we arrange at the Pack level for Cubs is done via the Service Unit, since most Troops are glorified Dens. The two leaders run their program, not Pack leadership exhaustion. All you need is the few meeting leaders, and you're off and running.

 

Option 2: Multi-level Troop: whatever levels you want, you register. The girls work on their appropriate level achievements (hopefully with leaders for each). This gives you some permanence, because you're recruiting new Kindergarten Daisies each year. You can meet your levels separately or together, whatever you want, total flexibility.

 

In my District, nearly every active Pack we have has a related Troop through the CO (there might be a few Elementary School PTA affiliated ones, but I think even they have a troop that meets at the Elementary school as well). We nod at Round Table about letting the boys explore different troops, and there is SOME people switching, but as a rule, the Boys migrate from Pack to Troop. The well run Troops have their grizzled experienced leaders help out in the Pack and make sure it's feeding good Scouts in.

 

I'm generalizing, apologize if it appears sexist, occaisionally the genders flip, but this seems the general trend:

Pack Leadership is one to two dads with a few boys running campouts.

Den Leadership is the moms running the den activities.

The Pack Leadership moves on to the troop when their boys cross over, the Den leadership is tired and burnt out.

 

This isn't how my pack functions, BTW, just my observation from Round Table.

 

Our Pack Committees are all a joke, our Troop Committees might be better, not sure, mostly because people spend more time there. Once their oldest son hits Troop, parent moves their attention there (why worry about the pack when your younger sons will be in the troop soon anyway), so the Troops have way more volunteers.

 

I'd replace our named Unit Level Committees with a Charter Org: Scouting Committee (obviously you could run two or three committees if you want). The Committee Chair would be responsible for Scouting, K-20. I'd allow flexibility in finances, the Committee can set policies for how to allocate funds between Scout Accounts, Den Budgets, Pack Budgets, Patrol Budgets, Troop Budgets. Create positions for Pack Subcommittee Chair, Webelos Subcommittee Chair, Troop Subcommittee Chair, Venture Subcommittee Chair that Units can use if they want. Basically, unify the paperwork.

 

I'd Split: Cub Pack: Lions, Tigers, Wolves, Bears: Create a special badge you wear on the Webelos/Boy Scout Uniform that shows you Cub Ranks earned like we do for Arrow of Light, replace the Tiger "Elective Beads" with Arrow heads, make Lions a SIMPLE program, they just get a bead every week, no 10 Electives = bead nonsense, too advanced for young kids.

Webelos Patrols: Autonomous, with a Patrol Master, transitioning between them. Get rid of Bobcat from Webelos, start learning the stuff you need for your Scout Rank. You can wear the Cub Belt Loops, because why not. For Webelos, I would create a GTSS that explains when they do things with the Pack (leadership at Pack Meetings), when they do things with the Troop (Den Campouts), but start moving them towards Troop, but an Adult Led Patrol. Maybe Webelos is one year only, but I think rising 5th graders might be young for Boy Scout Camp... Maybe a junior Scout Webelos Camp where they start working on Scout Skills in a more age appropriate manner. Not sure here.

Troop/Patrols: more or less as is, but focus on it as a three to four year core program. This should be a boys to manhood program that we acknowledge they age out of. Down here, most Eagles were active in middle school, in high school they get involved in other things and go to an occasional camp out, and maybe Scout Camp to wrap up their merit badges, then come back for their Eagle project at 16 or 17. Instead of the senior scout real leadership, use makeshift leadership to give middle schoolers a taste of it.

Venturers/Sea Scouts: integrate more. Troops should evolve into them. High Schoolers don't want to hang out with Middle Schoolers, let along fifth graders. Make this a more appropriate program for high school scouts who aren't going to make time for Scout craft but can hone leadership and really grow.

 

Sorry, I wrote a book, but in summary:

One Committee: let the parents unify efforts, let me run one set of books for all programs even if the levels have bank accounts, let that be our choice. Simply the administrative paperwork.

Cub Scouts: Lower Elementary School, K to 3

Webelos Patrol: Upper Elementary School (4-5)

Scout Troop: Middle School (6-8)

Venturer Crew: High School (9-12)

 

For reference, GSUSA Levels:

Daisy (K-1)

Brownies (2-3)

Juniors (4-5)

Cadettes (6-8)

Seniors (9-10)

Ambassadors (11-12)

 

While Seniors/Ambassadors have different activities, as far as we can tell, in my wife's service unit, they are all either single grade units so they just swap books/uniforms, or a multi-age Troop that is Seniors/Ambassadors, but that might be because the weird Ambassador level is only 5 years old.

 

I think this is an effort by GSUSA to sell more stuff, since girls won't outgrow uniforms like boys and can use the same one from 6 to 12, so first they switch the levels, then the switch the vest/sash, but we'll see.

 

Either way, they let you organize how you wish (a K-12 multi-age Troop could have a single Bank Account, Treasurer, Budget, etc), and set your own Camping Rules (could do a Family Camp for Brownies/Juniors, and a Patrol Camp for Cadettes/Seniors/Ambassadors if you want). They don't really do "ranks" like we do anymore, but are totally flexible and have age based stuff to do.

 

But I think that Cubs is burning out your leaders because Den Leader is really intense, and almost none of us, on the ground, have separate Pack Committees from Den Leadership. Letting us join forces with the Troop would let us focus on our Dens, and would let the Troop parents focus on making sure we're feeding them good Scouts. In Practice here, since most Webelos->Troop Transitions are in the CO (my SE told me to focus on relationship with our Troop since that's where we want the boys to go), having us run two or three parent committees simply requires more adult leadership than we can muster.

 

Added Benefit, Cub Parents would SEE what is going on at the Troop more if they were encouraged to interact more, and they'd understand that once their boys leave Cubs for Webelos, their involvement lessons, and after that to Troop, the boys are on their own.

[jr56]

Actually, this already exists. If 2 units have the same CO, they can share a committee.

[Pack18Alex]

Not what I've been told... been told "you can dual register" but the committees are supposed to be separate.

 

I also think if we're adding Kindergarteners, we gotta get the 4th/5th graders far away from them.

[kari_cardi]

I don't think Cub Scouts is too long, I think the Tiger age is fine. I think the program is too repetitive from rank to rank and often requires more volunteers to easily implement than are available. It could be much more streamlined, focused on core ideas and have more clarity. I think the standard and the goal should be to meet twice a month with quarterly pack meetings instead of monthly. In my experience, it is the pace of a standard Cub year that burns out leaders. In Cub Scouts, the leaders have to entertain the boys every week in some fashion. Totally different than Boy Scouts where the scouts entertain themselves. The time commitment is higher in Boy Scouts but the amount of planning is less. That is what I see in my household with two top unit leaders and boys in both programs.

 

We have a GSUSA leader in our pack right now who keeps making comparisons to what GSUSA does and what BSA does, or at least in the ways it is interpreted locally. BSA frustrates her. I can see why, it frustrates me too. Most of the differences come down to two factors. First, BSA has much more stringent safety guidelines. Girl Scouts are not restricted from many of the fun activities that Cub Scouts are not allowed to do according to the GTSS. Second, structure. A troop of 12 girls with a few committed parents can do more and be much more flexible about what they do than a pack of 30 with a few overworked leaders. A troop also does not have to spend nearly the time our pack does in recruitment. It's time away from the program

 

I think the really good GSUSA troops take the meatier, outdoor-oriented BSA content and translate it to smaller unit model. I have a former CM and current CM doing this right now with their daughters and their troops are very successful.

[fred johnson]

Integrate K-12... you can solve this. I have problems with GSUSA's program, but their structure is informative:

 

My wife is a Girl Scout Troop leader, in their program, they have two general "options."

 

Option 1: Single Level Troop, you take your daughter and her friends, and year after year you bridge to the next level, think a Cub Scout Tiger Den walking through Eagle generally with the same leaders. These Troops don't acquire gear or any permanence, but they have fun, and they use Council/Service Unit gear/events. Their service unit offers a "Mall Campout" and a "Movie Theatre Lock In" and other stuff... all the things we arrange at the Pack level for Cubs is done via the Service Unit, since most Troops are glorified Dens. The two leaders run their program, not Pack leadership exhaustion. All you need is the few meeting leaders, and you're off and running.

 

Option 2: Multi-level Troop: whatever levels you want, you register. The girls work on their appropriate level achievements (hopefully with leaders for each). This gives you some permanence, because you're recruiting new Kindergarten Daisies each year. You can meet your levels separately or together, whatever you want, total flexibility.

 

In my District, nearly every active Pack we have has a related Troop through the CO (there might be a few Elementary School PTA affiliated ones, but I think even they have a troop that meets at the Elementary school as well). We nod at Round Table about letting the boys explore different troops, and there is SOME people switching, but as a rule, the Boys migrate from Pack to Troop. The well run Troops have their grizzled experienced leaders help out in the Pack and make sure it's feeding good Scouts in.

 

I'm generalizing, apologize if it appears sexist, occaisionally the genders flip, but this seems the general trend:

Pack Leadership is one to two dads with a few boys running campouts.

Den Leadership is the moms running the den activities.

The Pack Leadership moves on to the troop when their boys cross over, the Den leadership is tired and burnt out.

 

This isn't how my pack functions, BTW, just my observation from Round Table.

 

Our Pack Committees are all a joke, our Troop Committees might be better, not sure, mostly because people spend more time there. Once their oldest son hits Troop, parent moves their attention there (why worry about the pack when your younger sons will be in the troop soon anyway), so the Troops have way more volunteers.

 

I'd replace our named Unit Level Committees with a Charter Org: Scouting Committee (obviously you could run two or three committees if you want). The Committee Chair would be responsible for Scouting, K-20. I'd allow flexibility in finances, the Committee can set policies for how to allocate funds between Scout Accounts, Den Budgets, Pack Budgets, Patrol Budgets, Troop Budgets. Create positions for Pack Subcommittee Chair, Webelos Subcommittee Chair, Troop Subcommittee Chair, Venture Subcommittee Chair that Units can use if they want. Basically, unify the paperwork.

 

I'd Split: Cub Pack: Lions, Tigers, Wolves, Bears: Create a special badge you wear on the Webelos/Boy Scout Uniform that shows you Cub Ranks earned like we do for Arrow of Light, replace the Tiger "Elective Beads" with Arrow heads, make Lions a SIMPLE program, they just get a bead every week, no 10 Electives = bead nonsense, too advanced for young kids.

Webelos Patrols: Autonomous, with a Patrol Master, transitioning between them. Get rid of Bobcat from Webelos, start learning the stuff you need for your Scout Rank. You can wear the Cub Belt Loops, because why not. For Webelos, I would create a GTSS that explains when they do things with the Pack (leadership at Pack Meetings), when they do things with the Troop (Den Campouts), but start moving them towards Troop, but an Adult Led Patrol. Maybe Webelos is one year only, but I think rising 5th graders might be young for Boy Scout Camp... Maybe a junior Scout Webelos Camp where they start working on Scout Skills in a more age appropriate manner. Not sure here.

Troop/Patrols: more or less as is, but focus on it as a three to four year core program. This should be a boys to manhood program that we acknowledge they age out of. Down here, most Eagles were active in middle school, in high school they get involved in other things and go to an occasional camp out, and maybe Scout Camp to wrap up their merit badges, then come back for their Eagle project at 16 or 17. Instead of the senior scout real leadership, use makeshift leadership to give middle schoolers a taste of it.

Venturers/Sea Scouts: integrate more. Troops should evolve into them. High Schoolers don't want to hang out with Middle Schoolers, let along fifth graders. Make this a more appropriate program for high school scouts who aren't going to make time for Scout craft but can hone leadership and really grow.

 

Sorry, I wrote a book, but in summary:

One Committee: let the parents unify efforts, let me run one set of books for all programs even if the levels have bank accounts, let that be our choice. Simply the administrative paperwork.

Cub Scouts: Lower Elementary School, K to 3

Webelos Patrol: Upper Elementary School (4-5)

Scout Troop: Middle School (6-8)

Venturer Crew: High School (9-12)

 

For reference, GSUSA Levels:

Daisy (K-1)

Brownies (2-3)

Juniors (4-5)

Cadettes (6-8)

Seniors (9-10)

Ambassadors (11-12)

 

While Seniors/Ambassadors have different activities, as far as we can tell, in my wife's service unit, they are all either single grade units so they just swap books/uniforms, or a multi-age Troop that is Seniors/Ambassadors, but that might be because the weird Ambassador level is only 5 years old.

 

I think this is an effort by GSUSA to sell more stuff, since girls won't outgrow uniforms like boys and can use the same one from 6 to 12, so first they switch the levels, then the switch the vest/sash, but we'll see.

 

Either way, they let you organize how you wish (a K-12 multi-age Troop could have a single Bank Account, Treasurer, Budget, etc), and set your own Camping Rules (could do a Family Camp for Brownies/Juniors, and a Patrol Camp for Cadettes/Seniors/Ambassadors if you want). They don't really do "ranks" like we do anymore, but are totally flexible and have age based stuff to do.

 

But I think that Cubs is burning out your leaders because Den Leader is really intense, and almost none of us, on the ground, have separate Pack Committees from Den Leadership. Letting us join forces with the Troop would let us focus on our Dens, and would let the Troop parents focus on making sure we're feeding them good Scouts. In Practice here, since most Webelos->Troop Transitions are in the CO (my SE told me to focus on relationship with our Troop since that's where we want the boys to go), having us run two or three parent committees simply requires more adult leadership than we can muster.

 

Added Benefit, Cub Parents would SEE what is going on at the Troop more if they were encouraged to interact more, and they'd understand that once their boys leave Cubs for Webelos, their involvement lessons, and after that to Troop, the boys are on their own.

Fully agree. That's how it should be. "One Unit" concept, K - 20. One committee of experienced people to help the new Cub leaders.

[fred johnson]

Actually, this already exists. If 2 units have the same CO, they can share a committee.

It's not how it's taught or registered. And would fall apart over the years as it's not the official way of doing things.

[Basementdweller]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

[Pack18Alex]

I don't think Cub Scouts is too long, I think the Tiger age is fine. I think the program is too repetitive from rank to rank and often requires more volunteers to easily implement than are available. It could be much more streamlined, focused on core ideas and have more clarity. I think the standard and the goal should be to meet twice a month with quarterly pack meetings instead of monthly. In my experience, it is the pace of a standard Cub year that burns out leaders. In Cub Scouts, the leaders have to entertain the boys every week in some fashion. Totally different than Boy Scouts where the scouts entertain themselves. The time commitment is higher in Boy Scouts but the amount of planning is less. That is what I see in my household with two top unit leaders and boys in both programs.

 

We have a GSUSA leader in our pack right now who keeps making comparisons to what GSUSA does and what BSA does, or at least in the ways it is interpreted locally. BSA frustrates her. I can see why, it frustrates me too. Most of the differences come down to two factors. First, BSA has much more stringent safety guidelines. Girl Scouts are not restricted from many of the fun activities that Cub Scouts are not allowed to do according to the GTSS. Second, structure. A troop of 12 girls with a few committed parents can do more and be much more flexible about what they do than a pack of 30 with a few overworked leaders. A troop also does not have to spend nearly the time our pack does in recruitment. It's time away from the program

 

I think the really good GSUSA troops take the meatier, outdoor-oriented BSA content and translate it to smaller unit model. I have a former CM and current CM doing this right now with their daughters and their troops are very successful.

Sasha, it's a trade off. BSA has a ton of red tape and process, but it's a standardized process that works relatively fine for all involved. If you are a Cub Scout Pack in rural Nebraska or Suburban New York, you get a roughly similar program as long as your Den Leaders are trained and follow the program. While "every Pack is different," we all follow the same trail, have the same meeting guides to start from, and the same general framework.

 

Now, if you're a really good BSA leader, the paperwork is a headache (including the fact that I need three committees if I want to run Ages 6-20 and/or co-ed, two committees if I'm 6-18 male only), the Unit Infrastructure is painful, and the process hard, but it does make the program relatively easy to duplicate.

 

GSUSA groups are all over the place. I'm pretty sure the BSA oriented GSUSA leaders really enjoy the flexibility and not needing to set anything up. OTOH, I can watch BSA flash videos for a few hours and see how to do EVERYTHING. I can download an Excel Template of a Budget, and an Excel Template of an annual plan. On the GSUSA side they say "do whatever you want." Most GSUSA troops are single level, do journies in meetings, and dump the rest of the responsibility on the service unit for their "big stuff."

 

So if you have a great GSUSA leader (probably one that learned from the BSA), they can apply the BSA program on a small unit and get great results without headaches. OTOH, if you take a GSUSA leader with no BSA experience... expect some crafting, service projects, mall campouts. The GSUSA service unit trainer here isn't camping certified and has never taken her (single age) troop camping, has no interest in it, and says that its fine either way.

 

I'm sure it is possible to do BSA without ever really camping, I assume the boys can do their required camping at summer camp, but it's certainly integral to the program in a way it is NOT integral to GSUSA.

[Pack18Alex]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

Because the Boy Scout Leaders are upset that we aren't showing up in 5th grade after marching our boys through 4.5 years of Scouting (while doing the Scout work ourselves because Cubs are too young) ready and raring to come and take a thankless committee job.

 

Huge difference in the mentality of volunteering to do activities with my 6 year old and boys his age and taking a back seat to let the boys run everything. It's a different program.

 

GSUSA Troops are defacto single rank, though they let you do whatever you want.

 

You can run the patrol method on your older girls, treat the younger ones like dens, and do the program just fine... it just isn't the norm.

[walk in the woods]

Integrate K-12... you can solve this. I have problems with GSUSA's program, but their structure is informative:

 

My wife is a Girl Scout Troop leader, in their program, they have two general "options."

 

Option 1: Single Level Troop, you take your daughter and her friends, and year after year you bridge to the next level, think a Cub Scout Tiger Den walking through Eagle generally with the same leaders. These Troops don't acquire gear or any permanence, but they have fun, and they use Council/Service Unit gear/events. Their service unit offers a "Mall Campout" and a "Movie Theatre Lock In" and other stuff... all the things we arrange at the Pack level for Cubs is done via the Service Unit, since most Troops are glorified Dens. The two leaders run their program, not Pack leadership exhaustion. All you need is the few meeting leaders, and you're off and running.

 

Option 2: Multi-level Troop: whatever levels you want, you register. The girls work on their appropriate level achievements (hopefully with leaders for each). This gives you some permanence, because you're recruiting new Kindergarten Daisies each year. You can meet your levels separately or together, whatever you want, total flexibility.

 

In my District, nearly every active Pack we have has a related Troop through the CO (there might be a few Elementary School PTA affiliated ones, but I think even they have a troop that meets at the Elementary school as well). We nod at Round Table about letting the boys explore different troops, and there is SOME people switching, but as a rule, the Boys migrate from Pack to Troop. The well run Troops have their grizzled experienced leaders help out in the Pack and make sure it's feeding good Scouts in.

 

I'm generalizing, apologize if it appears sexist, occaisionally the genders flip, but this seems the general trend:

Pack Leadership is one to two dads with a few boys running campouts.

Den Leadership is the moms running the den activities.

The Pack Leadership moves on to the troop when their boys cross over, the Den leadership is tired and burnt out.

 

This isn't how my pack functions, BTW, just my observation from Round Table.

 

Our Pack Committees are all a joke, our Troop Committees might be better, not sure, mostly because people spend more time there. Once their oldest son hits Troop, parent moves their attention there (why worry about the pack when your younger sons will be in the troop soon anyway), so the Troops have way more volunteers.

 

I'd replace our named Unit Level Committees with a Charter Org: Scouting Committee (obviously you could run two or three committees if you want). The Committee Chair would be responsible for Scouting, K-20. I'd allow flexibility in finances, the Committee can set policies for how to allocate funds between Scout Accounts, Den Budgets, Pack Budgets, Patrol Budgets, Troop Budgets. Create positions for Pack Subcommittee Chair, Webelos Subcommittee Chair, Troop Subcommittee Chair, Venture Subcommittee Chair that Units can use if they want. Basically, unify the paperwork.

 

I'd Split: Cub Pack: Lions, Tigers, Wolves, Bears: Create a special badge you wear on the Webelos/Boy Scout Uniform that shows you Cub Ranks earned like we do for Arrow of Light, replace the Tiger "Elective Beads" with Arrow heads, make Lions a SIMPLE program, they just get a bead every week, no 10 Electives = bead nonsense, too advanced for young kids.

Webelos Patrols: Autonomous, with a Patrol Master, transitioning between them. Get rid of Bobcat from Webelos, start learning the stuff you need for your Scout Rank. You can wear the Cub Belt Loops, because why not. For Webelos, I would create a GTSS that explains when they do things with the Pack (leadership at Pack Meetings), when they do things with the Troop (Den Campouts), but start moving them towards Troop, but an Adult Led Patrol. Maybe Webelos is one year only, but I think rising 5th graders might be young for Boy Scout Camp... Maybe a junior Scout Webelos Camp where they start working on Scout Skills in a more age appropriate manner. Not sure here.

Troop/Patrols: more or less as is, but focus on it as a three to four year core program. This should be a boys to manhood program that we acknowledge they age out of. Down here, most Eagles were active in middle school, in high school they get involved in other things and go to an occasional camp out, and maybe Scout Camp to wrap up their merit badges, then come back for their Eagle project at 16 or 17. Instead of the senior scout real leadership, use makeshift leadership to give middle schoolers a taste of it.

Venturers/Sea Scouts: integrate more. Troops should evolve into them. High Schoolers don't want to hang out with Middle Schoolers, let along fifth graders. Make this a more appropriate program for high school scouts who aren't going to make time for Scout craft but can hone leadership and really grow.

 

Sorry, I wrote a book, but in summary:

One Committee: let the parents unify efforts, let me run one set of books for all programs even if the levels have bank accounts, let that be our choice. Simply the administrative paperwork.

Cub Scouts: Lower Elementary School, K to 3

Webelos Patrol: Upper Elementary School (4-5)

Scout Troop: Middle School (6-8)

Venturer Crew: High School (9-12)

 

For reference, GSUSA Levels:

Daisy (K-1)

Brownies (2-3)

Juniors (4-5)

Cadettes (6-8)

Seniors (9-10)

Ambassadors (11-12)

 

While Seniors/Ambassadors have different activities, as far as we can tell, in my wife's service unit, they are all either single grade units so they just swap books/uniforms, or a multi-age Troop that is Seniors/Ambassadors, but that might be because the weird Ambassador level is only 5 years old.

 

I think this is an effort by GSUSA to sell more stuff, since girls won't outgrow uniforms like boys and can use the same one from 6 to 12, so first they switch the levels, then the switch the vest/sash, but we'll see.

 

Either way, they let you organize how you wish (a K-12 multi-age Troop could have a single Bank Account, Treasurer, Budget, etc), and set your own Camping Rules (could do a Family Camp for Brownies/Juniors, and a Patrol Camp for Cadettes/Seniors/Ambassadors if you want). They don't really do "ranks" like we do anymore, but are totally flexible and have age based stuff to do.

 

But I think that Cubs is burning out your leaders because Den Leader is really intense, and almost none of us, on the ground, have separate Pack Committees from Den Leadership. Letting us join forces with the Troop would let us focus on our Dens, and would let the Troop parents focus on making sure we're feeding them good Scouts. In Practice here, since most Webelos->Troop Transitions are in the CO (my SE told me to focus on relationship with our Troop since that's where we want the boys to go), having us run two or three parent committees simply requires more adult leadership than we can muster.

 

Added Benefit, Cub Parents would SEE what is going on at the Troop more if they were encouraged to interact more, and they'd understand that once their boys leave Cubs for Webelos, their involvement lessons, and after that to Troop, the boys are on their own.

Two thumbs way up for the single committee part, I'm also becoming more interested in the AHG model of one troop with the various age levels. I'm coming around on the Boy Scouts = MIddle School part with a forced migration to Venturing. If you're going to do that though I'd make Star - Eagle part of the venturing program.