Is Cub Scouts too long?

[AKdenldr]

Interesting conversation. I don't think the transition from cub scouts to boy scouts looses so many boys because they are burned out. (Is it about 50% loss at end of Webelos and then another 50% in the first year?) I see that the boys are not choosing the Boy Scout program (possibly because they don't know what it is, possibly because they don't like the heavy outdoor component, possibly because their sport now requires so much from boy.)

 

I do see cub leaders and parents burning out. (My experience was with a new pack, so maybe it is different with established packs. We had to figure out so much and received so little support.) But the involved adults in the Boy Scout program tend to have been involved in their son's Pack program.

 

I don't see the BSA shortening cub scouting because some Scouters think it is too long. Because at those early ages the BSA is reaching BSA goals of providing a program and teaching kids character and citizenship at those developmental ages. Sorry to say, the goal of cub scouting is not to grow Boy or Eagle scouts. The goal is not even to retain them for a certain length of years in either program.

 

On the practical matter of separating the young cubs from Webelos, that is a small matter. Around here what is common is to rent the "multipurpose room" at the elementary school one night a week and send the dens into different corners. This is easier for a Pack Committee and cheaper and perhaps they don't know any better. Instead our pack dens met after school on different days in different rooms. DL's and parent volunteers figured out the calendar for the den. Have less pack meetings and more pack events.

 

I had a den of 8 over 5 years but 13 boys transitioned through that. In the end five bridged to a troop and we still have them a year latter. All of them learned some things, and did some things, and had some good experiences in their formative years they never would have had if they had not joined. Isn't that what it is about?

 

(In little league we never worry about retaining our t ballers until the end of sixth grade, let alone until they graduate high school, we're just happy they're there to play ball.)

 

-- AK

[Nike]

I was never so happy not ot ever have to go to a Pack meeting again. After two sons in Cubs, yes, it's too long. I think that if there were a different expectation for leaders that would help. If a DL comes in with a Tiger, then they are ready to pack it in by the end of Bears but sometimes gut it out through WEBs. If I could set up leadership in a Pack, I would have a permanent Tiger leader who helps recruit the Wolf/Bear DLs. At the end of Bears, transition to a new DL for WEB with an active ASM as an ADL or consulting DL. And two years of WEB's is rough. Our den made it 18 months and crossed.

 

One thing about GS is that the age levels are all two years with the exception of Cadettes, which is three. Most leaders can get through two years with a single program. It could be the same in Cubs if age levels were intelligently aligned and the programs were not repetitive.

[King Ding Dong]

An interesting idea about integrating webs more with the troop. At the web II fall camporee where I noticed the older boys complaining about the obnoxious webs. They were joining the troop in six months. Does that six months add some maturity ? Does the whole crossing over part add a bit of seriousness to them ? Interesting thoughts on separating the webs from the Tigers because my son has been very nurturing to the younger cubs and maybe in the next six months to a year would make a good den chief for tigers. Rather than separate them, how about have the Webelos use their skills from the Forestry badge and lead the mini hike talking about trees and help the tigers make their leaf rubbings. Seems to me that approach would help the transition to BS better than separating them and also help show the new parents what we are trying to achieve in scouts.

[kari_cardi]

I'm active as a Cub Scout leader and as a Boy Scout leader. I don't think Cub Scouts is too long even with the Boy Scout perspective added to my world view. I think the program is too repetitive and leans too heavily on the den leaders.

 

I do think there are leaders who work better with older boys who might see the Cub Scout years as endless. I think it might also help if volunteers could work with a preferred rank rather than following their son through the ranks.

[Moggie]

A Couple of comments.

 

1) It is entirely possible for one set of folks on a committee to run multiple units. I've seen this with a SCOUTREACH program where the committee was the same for 3 or 4 different units, and I've seen it with A troop/crew combination. Is it easy, no people should really "wear one hat" (HAHAHAHA pot calling the kettle black )but it is possible and allowed by BSA

 

2) In some countries, that is how scouting is done, i.e. one committee supports all the units. If I remember correcetly, and one of our Brit members please tell me if I am wrong, A scout groups will consist of Cubs, Scouts, and Explorers. The group leadership is essentially a committee that supports the pack, troop, and crew. Some units have been around longer than some councils have been around.

 

3) Because of the small unit nature of GSUSA, their troops are essentially the size of BSA patrols, of course more activities can be done. BUT becasue they are so small, there is not enough room for everyone and some girls are denied the program.

"2) In some countries, that is how scouting is done, i.e. one committee supports all the units. If I remember correcetly, and one of our Brit members please tell me if I am wrong, A scout groups will consist of Cubs, Scouts, and Explorers. The group leadership is essentially a committee that supports the pack, troop, and crew. Some units have been around longer than some councils have been around."

 

This is indeed how we broadly operate. In my group 1st Westbury in common with most UK groups, we have a single committee, the group is headed by a Group Scout Leader. A young person joins the group at age 6 as a beaver scout, progresses to cubs at 8yrs, to scouts at 10 1/2yrs and then at 14, if the group supports an explorer unit becomes an explorer scout. Explorer units operate at district level rather than at group, although in rural and small towns the explorers tend to be formed around the scout groups.

Cheers

Gareth

[Basementdweller]

An interesting idea about integrating webs more with the troop. At the web II fall camporee where I noticed the older boys complaining about the obnoxious webs. They were joining the troop in six months. Does that six months add some maturity ? Does the whole crossing over part add a bit of seriousness to them ? Interesting thoughts on separating the webs from the Tigers because my son has been very nurturing to the younger cubs and maybe in the next six months to a year would make a good den chief for tigers. Rather than separate them, how about have the Webelos use their skills from the Forestry badge and lead the mini hike talking about trees and help the tigers make their leaf rubbings. Seems to me that approach would help the transition to BS better than separating them and also help show the new parents what we are trying to achieve in scouts.

That is why you let the older guys pick some older guy only activities.....

 

I know you will get some knuckleheads on here that will say that it ok to take a new 11 year old crossover backpacking ten miles.......But you are just asking to lose the boy... I witness a lad at a district level event ....just joined the troop in feb.....in april they take him on a 20 mile backpacking trip.....First the pack didn't fit right and second his walmart gear was way too heavy for him to carry. He was in tears at the end and told mom and scoutleader he was done...and from the yelling the rest of his friends were too......

 

I am not looking forward to this years crop of Webelos, they are complete animals....I see challenges a head.

[blw2]

Just spent a few minutes going through the bear book this morning. It truly is too repetitive. Granted, a scout can choose to not do some particular activity that he did last year..... and oh yeah, the year before...... but when you cull all of that out, there aren't that many choices!

 

If I step back away from it for a little perspective I can see that it really is a good idea to have a dedicated leader rather than have a leader follow the boy, but there are problems with that too. Not such a big deal bear year, but one of our boys' dad is the leader for his older brother's den..... so his son has been dropped off for his den leader to watch except the occasion that mom brought him. Especially for the Tiger year, the program is clear that it's not to be baby sitting. The parent is "supposed to be" an integral and active part of it.

 

Also, there's the angle that the parent who wants to be active & become a leader..... wants to work with their own kid...... especially at first.

 

Now if you have a Lem Siddons (just watced that movie for the first time today) that can be the tiger leader..... & I guess soon we'll need another Lem for the Lions...... then the parents can just be a parent until the boys get older and don't have to be with the parent.... also would give the parents and prospective Wolf, Bear, & Webs leaders a better orientation and time to filter out the more interested leaders from the rest of the parents. Has great potential for a better program, but finding the right person to take over tigers permanently, and making that happen in my pack is not likely to happen anytime soon.

[DeanRx]

As a former CM, with a son beginning again in Tigers this year, and a current ASM for a troop in which my older son is beginning his 2nd year (almost done with 1st class)... I'm living boht sides of this issue...

 

If I was king of BSA for a day, I would make the following changes: 1) get rid of Lions, 1st grade is soon enough to start. 2) Make Webelos 1 year instead of 2, and make itthe beginning part of Boy Scouts instead of the end of Cub Scouts.

 

The big change this would bring is that Boy Scouts is a "go at your own pace" program, unlike Cubbies that is a "do it all together in the same year" program. Let the older kids advance at their own speed and do their own things. It would also reduce the amount of years spent in Cubland, and thus decrease leader burnout with the younger kids.

 

[Callie]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

[King Ding Dong]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

Little boys and girls act differently. A good DL can lead the boys with the parents just sitting by the fire. Not all of us are that good.

 

The parents are also their for youth protection.

[dedkad]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

It takes a special GS leader to want to take 7 Brownies camping by themselves. A 2nd grader has minimal cooking, cleaning, and tent set-up skills, so you're pretty much doing it all for them. And what about all those middle-of-the-night bathroom trips? Think those girls are willing to walk to the bathroom by themselves in the dark? I think family camping at that age is entirely appropriate and preferred.

[blw2]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

I do agree with Callie about the cubs needing more responsibility on the camping trips.... at least in my pack.

But I agree with KDD and Dedkad. I sure don't want to take on the total responsibility for all of those treasured kids. That's why I want mom &/or dad along, especially when they are young.

I do think our pack could do better with some organized responsibilities and or activities for the cubs, rather than just letting them "enjoy the outdoors" . That's sort of the stance of the pack's old-guard leadership. No there's a place for that for sure, but IMHO I think it would be better to have maybe 10-20% of the awake time occupied formally with some responsibility, service project, achievement, or elective activity, with the rest freetime. Our problem is that this is not the way it always has been done..... and also it's hard or impossible to get anyone interested in organizing it. As KDD wrote, we're not all that good!

[Pack18Alex]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

On paper, two 18 year old college freshman can sign up as girl scout leaders, recruit 8 five-year old pre-K girls, sign them up as a Daisy Troop, and go camping...

 

In practice, nobody really takes the Daisy Troops camping... and several of my wife's Daisy's have been family camping with the Cubs for 1-3 years. However, since GSUSA doesn't permit family camping, it means realistically no camping when they are little.

 

In BSA, Tigers/Cubs, soon to be Lions-Cubs, family Camp. Once they hit Webelos in 4th grade, they can do a Den Overnighter. I believe that the parents are supposed to be there, but not camping with their boys, and not with the whole family in tow, just parents to make sure everything goes well.

 

So in practice SOME 3rd grade Brownies start camping, mostly any camping component kicks in in 4th grade via Juniors, which is when BSA lets you do Den Overnighters (instead of Family Camping).

 

In theory, GSUSA lets you leader/scout camp earlier. In practice, BSA/GSUSA lets you leader/scout camp at around the same time (4th grade BSA, 3rd grade GSUSA), while BSA lets you family camp younger.

 

For us, taking the family camping has been great fun and involves all the family. Taking their young children away from them for the weekend is kind of a big deal in our circle, but we're a religious based Pack, so taking ones children away from the family for the Sabbath is a big deal.

[Pack18Alex]

The GSUSA model is flawed.....

 

I have ran into more than a few single rank troop.....Plus the the GSUSA encourages limiting troops to a single school, ethnic group, neighborhood........

 

So why aren't the GS limiting fun activities yet????? Probably because some bone head volunteer has screwed up and got them sued yet.... Did I tell you about the Cub dad playing woodsman that drove his 3/4 ax into the ground cutting the camps water line??????? Summer camp is a great comparison......Webelos and cubs are limited to a 4 day camp....the Girl scouts go for 6....Why the difference? The girls sleep in air conditioned cabins complete with bathrooms and showers.....They have a huge air conditioned main building were most of the activities occur.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that the Cub leaders don't think it is too long and the Boy Scout leaders do.....

BD, Very new and in over my head... but having fun and Doing My Best!

[kari_cardi]

I have been reading this discussion with interest. When my son was a Bear, I definitely thought the Bear program was repetitive and also, "too much like school." He was also bored with the program.

 

Webelos I and II go much meatier and more interesting.

 

Baden-Powell Scouting (BPSA) has kids in grades 3-5 together as one group, and that grouping seems good to me. GSUSA has Brownies as girls in grads 2-3. I'd say being a troop leader, grade 3 (second year of Brownies) was where it really got fun.

 

I don't know why we all are pushing so hard to get little little children into Scouting. When I was young, Girl Scouts didn't even start till 2nd grade! I see moms and dads in my town trying so hard to get Daisies started for their little girls (k-1st grade) and the evening meetings are just so hard on kids that young, and the parents are tearing their hair out. We have a big retention problems in 4th and 5th grade too (Juniors) and I think it is because the parents are so burned out.

 

I have a question about pack camping. Why is is Cub Scouts don't camp just with their leaders? I know it is popular to state the Girl Scouts don't go camping, and I'm sure that's true for many troops. But many troops DO go troop camping, and if they are doing it the "official Girl Scout way" they camp with their leaders and perhaps a chaperone or two. This starts as early as Brownies, so 2nd grade, in most cases. Certainly girls in grades 4 and 5 (Juniors) are not family camping where each girl has her parent along.

 

I have been on very pleasant Girl Scout camping trips (where we prepared the girls to do most of the work through practice and progression of skills) and I have been on some dreadful Cub Scout family camping trips, where boys ran around with no responsibility, and a passel of adults did all the work. Even with a good deal of planning, it just felt like there were too many adults around. What is the point of having all those parents come along on a camping trip for the boys?

That's interesting. All the girl scout troops I know have at least one family camp out each year. Must be unofficial. Wonder how the liability for that works out.