National Outdoor Achievement Badges and Award

[Basementdweller]

Good and noble????? I am not trying to be good and noble....I am trying to run a program.....I could give a rats behind if they earn it or not. If they earn it, it will because they plan a program that meets the requirements.....Not because dad arranged for son and his best friend to go for long bike rides or hikes or swimming to simply meet the minimum for the award.

 

Straw man, pssssst, how is my example different than KDD arranging for his son and best friend to do stuff on their own with out their patrol and counting it as a Patrol activity.

 

 

Ya what about the boys.....

 

So old KDD's son and his best friend are going off and their own to earn the award......Sure that's great......But the troop program still sucks. So who is benefiting?????? old KDD gets to puff his chest out and say my son earned the award.....The boy gets to say he earned it......But at what expense???? I bet the troop program suffers.

 

So the old lone scout????? My experience is that most lone scouts are home schooled and their parents view the rest of us at best bad influences or worst as inferior human beings. So camping requirements????? family camping??? I have never seen a lone scout at Summer camp, camporee or a council event. So who knows???????? Maybe that is the answer for KDD.....then he and his scout can count every bike ride for a slurpie and every minute in the bath tub. I am out of patience or understanding with or for him.

 

 

....Son is at Jambo...He white water rafted during the event for 4 hours of time on the water, he swam today for another 4 hours, 8 hours of community service for the day of service......8 mile hike to the garden and 9 days of camping.....I think he had 4 hours of mountain biking too and mountain boarding..... All under the Auspices. No splitting hairs inviting best friends or in anyway trying to make myself thing I am doing the right thing, or fuzzy interpretations of the written word.

 

See KDD it isn't all that hard

 

[blw2]

Dude, I was suggesting a step back for a friendly moment of consideration...... I think you took a step forward!

I just hope you didn't break your keyboard on that one. You bring a lot of good to the discussions, and we don't want you down due to technical difficulties

[King Ding Dong]

Good and noble????? I am not trying to be good and noble....I am trying to run a program.....I could give a rats behind if they earn it or not. If they earn it, it will because they plan a program that meets the requirements.....Not because dad arranged for son and his best friend to go for long bike rides or hikes or swimming to simply meet the minimum for the award.

 

Straw man, pssssst, how is my example different than KDD arranging for his son and best friend to do stuff on their own with out their patrol and counting it as a Patrol activity.

 

 

Ya what about the boys.....

 

So old KDD's son and his best friend are going off and their own to earn the award......Sure that's great......But the troop program still sucks. So who is benefiting?????? old KDD gets to puff his chest out and say my son earned the award.....The boy gets to say he earned it......But at what expense???? I bet the troop program suffers.

 

So the old lone scout????? My experience is that most lone scouts are home schooled and their parents view the rest of us at best bad influences or worst as inferior human beings. So camping requirements????? family camping??? I have never seen a lone scout at Summer camp, camporee or a council event. So who knows???????? Maybe that is the answer for KDD.....then he and his scout can count every bike ride for a slurpie and every minute in the bath tub. I am out of patience or understanding with or for him.

 

 

....Son is at Jambo...He white water rafted during the event for 4 hours of time on the water, he swam today for another 4 hours, 8 hours of community service for the day of service......8 mile hike to the garden and 9 days of camping.....I think he had 4 hours of mountain biking too and mountain boarding..... All under the Auspices. No splitting hairs inviting best friends or in anyway trying to make myself thing I am doing the right thing, or fuzzy interpretations of the written word.

 

See KDD it isn't all that hard

Why didn't I think of that ? Send my kid to Jambo. Easy. Let me do the math on how many times I can do that before he ages out.

 

As IH I can put whatever I want on the calendar. I can make opportunities available to the whole troop. When have i ever suggested closed, exclusive opportunities ? I can't make people participate. They want to do other activities like sports and video games. I can't fix that. As Scouter99 points out "People will do what they want to do"

 

Why should couch potatoes and sports junkies hold a Scout back from achieving his goals ?

 

Still going for the straw men, eh ? Slurpie and bathtub.

[Basementdweller]

Good and noble????? I am not trying to be good and noble....I am trying to run a program.....I could give a rats behind if they earn it or not. If they earn it, it will because they plan a program that meets the requirements.....Not because dad arranged for son and his best friend to go for long bike rides or hikes or swimming to simply meet the minimum for the award.

 

Straw man, pssssst, how is my example different than KDD arranging for his son and best friend to do stuff on their own with out their patrol and counting it as a Patrol activity.

 

 

Ya what about the boys.....

 

So old KDD's son and his best friend are going off and their own to earn the award......Sure that's great......But the troop program still sucks. So who is benefiting?????? old KDD gets to puff his chest out and say my son earned the award.....The boy gets to say he earned it......But at what expense???? I bet the troop program suffers.

 

So the old lone scout????? My experience is that most lone scouts are home schooled and their parents view the rest of us at best bad influences or worst as inferior human beings. So camping requirements????? family camping??? I have never seen a lone scout at Summer camp, camporee or a council event. So who knows???????? Maybe that is the answer for KDD.....then he and his scout can count every bike ride for a slurpie and every minute in the bath tub. I am out of patience or understanding with or for him.

 

 

....Son is at Jambo...He white water rafted during the event for 4 hours of time on the water, he swam today for another 4 hours, 8 hours of community service for the day of service......8 mile hike to the garden and 9 days of camping.....I think he had 4 hours of mountain biking too and mountain boarding..... All under the Auspices. No splitting hairs inviting best friends or in anyway trying to make myself thing I am doing the right thing, or fuzzy interpretations of the written word.

 

See KDD it isn't all that hard

he wasn't old enough anyhow....It was thirteen by the end of 2013 and first class.

 

As IH you shouldn't monkey with the program calendar on any level.....That is the Job of the den leaders, Cub Program chair and PLC or SM.

[pohsuwed]

Yes, I'm a little late to this party, but I do have a bit I would like to add to this discussion.

 

Frankly, I get somewhat disgusted with some of the attitude that I find on these forums and this thread is no exception. It really appears as though a few people have latched onto and twisted a concept to make it something that it is not. The addition of quotes from Bill Evans doesn’t really answer the question either as it is evident that this is a poorly constructed award in the first place and even if Bill thought through it clearly he would probably not want to appear to contradict the documentation. And whoever feels important enough to be able to get Bill to answer his questions, maybe next time you should ask real questions that will get to the bottom of the issue.

 

Consider this example:

 

It is clear that the NOA Hiking requirements include miles hiked when earning the Hiking merit badge. Does the Hiking merit badge require scouts to work on the badge as a patrol or a troop? Nope. Do the NOA Hiking requirements specifically provide a disqualification on those miles from the Hiking merit badge that would make them ineligible for NOA purposes? Nope. There is the “auspices†thing, but does a scout who hikes the required hikes to earn the Hiking merit badge not do so with a scouting purpose? Or does Basementdweller really want to argue that the inclusion of the “auspices†wording negate the inclusion of the Hiking merit badge miles if done alone? It is only reasonable that if the writers of this award wanted to disqualify Hiking merit badge miles done individually and not as part of a patrol/troop activity that they would have stated that clearly.

 

Then consider this example:

 

For several awards in Boy Scouts and Venturing a scout needs to establish and follow through on a fitness plan. Let’s say a scout determines that as part of his fitness plan that he will mountain bike 10 miles each Saturday morning. This is definitely a scouting activity, and it makes perfect sense that this is done as an individual activity rather than as a patrol or troop activity. If given the opportunity, would Bill Evans state that this would not be considered under the auspices of scouting? In his questioning to Bill, Scouter99 referenced non patrol/troop activities as “individual pursuit†suggesting that they have no connection to scouting. Scouter99 also stated that Bill’s answer came back very quickly during Jamboree weekâ€â€is it reasonable that Bill actually took the time to consider anything other than Scouter99’s slanted question when he responded with his fourteen word response?

 

And sure, there are select individuals who will say that boys will manipulate the requirements to include something as simple as ride their bikes to get ice cream. Their response is to then add to the requirements to require a percentage of a scout’s patrol to participate before the scout can count the activity. Is this about a scout getting into the outdoors or about a scout maintaining a high level of activity by scouts in the troop? There are other awards for thatâ€â€let this award be about getting into the outdoors.

 

With this said, I’m a proponent of being consistent and reasonable for this award. Camping nights have always been based on patrol/troop activities and this should continue to apply. Hiking miles have never excluded individual hikes and this should continue to apply. Riding miles have also never excluded individual miles (Cycling merit badge states “BSA Buddy System†which is an obvious statement about scout safety and not about doing this as a patrol/troop). And none of the aquatics merit badges require patrol/troop participation. Adventure activities are pretty much described as patrol/troop activities which makes sense that these follow this guidance. It’s really not that difficult.

 

(By the way, I find it interesting that those types of folks who argue against groups working on merit badges together are trying to suggest just that.)

 

And finally how about this:

 

Would BSA really want to create an individual award but require them to be part of a highly active troop to be able to qualify for it? Nope. Obviously, some troops have things going on a bit better than others. But does a proactive scout in a less-than-ideal troop have to suffer if they have personal goals? And should that scout be criticized that doing so is what is causing the troop to be less-than-ideal? Nope. Certainly not by people who would have absolutely no idea about the difficulties in that troop. After all, we all know that running a good program is always a challenge even for well-seasoned troops.

[Scouter99]

Yes, I'm a little late to this party, but I do have a bit I would like to add to this discussion.

Frankly, I get somewhat disgusted with some of the attitude that I find on these forums and this thread is no exception. It really appears as though a few people have latched onto and twisted a concept to make it something that it is not. The addition of quotes from Bill Evans doesn’t really answer the question either as it is evident that this is a poorly constructed award in the first place and even if Bill thought through it clearly he would probably not want to appear to contradict the documentation. And whoever feels important enough to be able to get Bill to answer his questions, maybe next time you should ask real questions that will get to the bottom of the issue.

Hoho, we got a live one. I did not anywhere imply that I was important because Mr Evans answered me, in fact what I said was that I was surprised he replied because I'm not important. Mr Evans has retired since July, his replacement replies to emails just as quickly.

 

Consider this example:

It is clear that the NOA Hiking requirements include miles hiked when earning the Hiking merit badge. Does the Hiking merit badge require scouts to work on the badge as a patrol or a troop? Nope. Do the NOA Hiking requirements specifically provide a disqualification on those miles from the Hiking merit badge that would make them ineligible for NOA purposes? Nope. There is the “auspices†thing, but does a scout who hikes the required hikes to earn the Hiking merit badge not do so with a scouting purpose? Or does Basementdweller really want to argue that the inclusion of the “auspices†wording negate the inclusion of the Hiking merit badge miles if done alone? It is only reasonable that if the writers of this award wanted to disqualify Hiking merit badge miles done individually and not as part of a patrol/troop activity that they would have stated that clearly.

Hiking done toward the Hiking (and Backpacking) is done within Scouting, it is "under the auspices." I don't recall if BD thinks not, I certainly never said it isn't.

 

Right from this start, you seem to be confusing "alone" and my phrase "individual pursuit." By individual pursuit, I mean something the Scout is doing for his own pleasure on his own time. A Scout might be hiking by himself to earn Hiking MB, but hiking for Hiking MB is not a personal hobby.

 

Then consider this example:

For several awards in Boy Scouts and Venturing a scout needs to establish and follow through on a fitness plan. Let’s say a scout determines that as part of his fitness plan that he will mountain bike 10 miles each Saturday morning. This is definitely a scouting activity, and it makes perfect sense that this is done as an individual activity rather than as a patrol or troop activity. If given the opportunity, would Bill Evans state that this would not be considered under the auspices of scouting? In his questioning to Bill, Scouter99 referenced non patrol/troop activities as “individual pursuit†suggesting that they have no connection to scouting.

This scenario is the same as the hiking scenario, and the same logic applies. If the Scout biked for Personal Fitness MB, then he's got biking miles. You're arguing against something I never said.

 

Scouter99 also stated that Bill’s answer came back very quickly during Jamboree weekâ€â€is it reasonable that Bill actually took the time to consider anything other than Scouter99’s slanted question when he responded with his fourteen word response?

I think you'll agree he is able to answer these questions quickly because he knows his stuff. Or let's take off our disgusted hats, and put on our thinking caps, and conclude that he was able to answer my email quickly because he had just answered the same question for BD.

 

Is this about a scout getting into the outdoors or about a scout maintaining a high level of activity by scouts in the troop? There are other awards for thatâ€â€let this award be about getting into the outdoors.

You're wrong, and the correct answer to your questio nis right one the award's webpage:

Now when a Scout excels in outdoor participation, there are new awards to show for it! This program, conceived by the National Camping Task Force of the BSA®, includes a series of five badges designed to recognize a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout who has exemplary knowledge and experience in performing high-level outdoor activities.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...wards/noa.aspx

 

The award is designed to recognize Scouts who are highly active in Scouting.

 

And finally how about this:

Would BSA really want to create an individual award but require them to be part of a highly active troop to be able to qualify for it? Nope. Obviously, some troops have things going on a bit better than others. But does a proactive scout in a less-than-ideal troop have to suffer if they have personal goals? And should that scout be criticized that doing so is what is causing the troop to be less-than-ideal? Nope. Certainly not by people who would have absolutely no idea about the difficulties in that troop. After all, we all know that running a good program is always a challenge even for well-seasoned troops.

A boy, like King Ding Dong's son, who is "proactive in a less-than-ideal troop" should find a troop that meets his needs, not sit around in a crummy troop. The solution is not to bend the rules for him. They all get the same 7 years. Patrol, troop, district, council, OA, and national programming offers more than enough opportuinites for any proactive boy with a less active troop without manipulating the award.

[Basementdweller]

Nice reply 99

 

Another dad searching for awards for son.....Nice.

 

Under the auspices.......Patrol outings and Merit badges both require SM's Approval....... So hiking and biking for the merit badge is under the auspices. So if the Cycling MBC is ok with counting the short trips to the corner kwikie mart for slushies toward the merit badge then I am good with it too, I have no other choice, other than report that MBC to the district on the complaint form.

 

Scouter 99, I told KDD earlier to fix his troop.....Not abandon it....Or have his son invite his patrol on the ride.

[Scouter99]

Nice reply 99

 

Another dad searching for awards for son.....Nice.

 

Under the auspices.......Patrol outings and Merit badges both require SM's Approval....... So hiking and biking for the merit badge is under the auspices. So if the Cycling MBC is ok with counting the short trips to the corner kwikie mart for slushies toward the merit badge then I am good with it too, I have no other choice, other than report that MBC to the district on the complaint form.

 

Scouter 99, I told KDD earlier to fix his troop.....Not abandon it....Or have his son invite his patrol on the ride.

I agree with that advice (to KDD) but some troops like to stink.

[Basementdweller]

Nice reply 99

 

Another dad searching for awards for son.....Nice.

 

Under the auspices.......Patrol outings and Merit badges both require SM's Approval....... So hiking and biking for the merit badge is under the auspices. So if the Cycling MBC is ok with counting the short trips to the corner kwikie mart for slushies toward the merit badge then I am good with it too, I have no other choice, other than report that MBC to the district on the complaint form.

 

Scouter 99, I told KDD earlier to fix his troop.....Not abandon it....Or have his son invite his patrol on the ride.

Naw it is disinterested, lazy parents and leaders. Honestly I would like to have the summer off, but a successful troop needs to meet and continue the program.