Council respect for volunteer time (or lack thereof)

[dedkad]

Looks like GeorgiaMom is done discussing this. She deleted her original post and her follow-up comments.

[Basementdweller]

She obviously doesn't want to carry the guilt if she did end PTA/PTO sponsorship of packs and troops in Georgia. Too late now.......Honestly the BSA is better off without someone like her. She would have been a thorn in the side of what ever organization she would have been a part of.

[Basementdweller]

Here is the original post........

King Ding Dong kindly suggested that I approach my DE to discuss the idea of asking/requiring more Scout parents to step up in our pack. I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm afraid we are far past that.

 

I have had a different situation this year with the BSA as treasurer that has greatly soured me on the organization as a whole. I have gone from an enthusiastic volunteer to a mom who just wants to do the best for her son. I will participate in the pack, but only to the extent I feel is appropriate. I am no longer a gung-ho, make the pack go mom.

 

I would be interested to know if others have found themselves in similar situations with the BSA Councils. If the BSA Councils actually read any of these forums and take an interest in how their volunteers are doing, maybe take a long look in the mirror and reconsider how many BSA volunteers are treated.

 

I was asked to be our pack treasurer for the school year just ended. In the process of trying to diligently do my job, I found out on my own that our pack had not filed any tax returns for their entire seven years of existence. The charter organization also had not included the pack finances in their 990 tax filings.

 

When I tried to talk to the charter organization about it, they got angry and told me to go away. When I tried to talk to the pack leaders, they told me to keep my mouth shut about it (in more polite, but stern, language) because "we can't afford to offend the CO and lose our charter."

 

I was told directly by our committee chair that:

 

1. I was offending him personally by even suggesting that he or the BSA would be involved in anything illegal. (how did I get from "hey leaders, I found out our taxes haven't been filed properly" to "hey leaders, y'all are all personally dishonest". ?) How can any treasurer bring up any financial issue caused by a previous leader if the current leader takes personal offense?

 

2. I was hurting the kids and the program by undermining the BSA. His tone is that anything the BSA does is golden, and if I think something is wrong, I must not be understanding it correctly.

 

3. There was no problem with no one having filed any taxes for the pack for the previous seven years. He said we would not be filing taxes for the current year either. If the IRS ever pursued it, he said "we will call on the Scouters at the council to address any IRS inquiries.". Um...did anyone ask *me* if I'm comfortable doing something illegal on our taxes and then having the Council defend me to the IRS? Um...hell no.

 

Then, I got a call at my home from the Council. Not to help, but to tell me in no uncertain terms to quit pursuing the tax issue. They ranted for an hour, telling me that everyone all the way up to the state level of the BSA and the PTA (our charter organization) knew all about me and were all very angry. The Council rep (our DE) told me that the state PTA "hates the Scouts" and had been "looking for a reason to cancel all the charters". He said by trying to get the taxes filed, I was giving them the reason they needed, and I would be responsible for disbanding hundreds of packs and thousands of Scouts statewide if I didn't stop. I was shaking by the time I finally got off the phone.

 

Without the cooperation of the pack, the Council, or the CO, I was unable to file the taxes, but I have personal responsibility to file the taxes as a signer on the bank account.

 

So, I quit. I called my own CPA, confirmed that I did have personal liability to the IRS for the taxes not being filed as I was a signer on the bank account, just like I'd been telling the pack leaders for months, while they pooh poohed my concerns and told me to keep my mouth shut. I was right. I did what my CPA advised me to do to protect myself. I quit. I got my name removed from the bank account. The pack leaders kept kicking the can down the road telling me they couldn't replace me. I told them *they* could put their own names on the account as interim treasurer! I was leaving!

 

I have lost so much respect for the Scouts this year. I feel completely thrown under the bus. I was concerned about my personal liability for a tax mess I had no part in making, and instead of getting help, I had the Council calling my house to tell me I "had to be more political". I don't give a crap about the politics between the BSA and the PTA. If they can't make a charter agreement that both sides understand and are willing to uphold, then I don't see how that's my personal problem. Are they all nuts? I barely have time to do the actual finances, much less deal with all the politics!

 

Right now, the PTA insists that the BSA is supposed to file the tax returns. The BSA insists that the PTA is supposed to do it. Both of them expect the treasurer to just shut up and deal with the IRS if they ever come knocking. Wow!

 

The only thing that keeps me in Scouts is the fact that I have an 8 year old who loves Scout events with his dad. This is a very special part of his relationship with his Daddy that I do not wish to spoil with all this adult drama. My son has no idea. I am trying to keep it together being in a pack with leaders who are pretty angry with me right now so I don't let this affect my son. Not fun at all. I could try another pack, but that would mean taking him away from his friends. I consider that a last resort.

 

My take on the BSA after my experience is that they absolutely don't give a crap about the adult volunteers. They will run them into the ground, happily, as long as they rake in cash for our work. So, from now on, I will do the bare minimum I feel I should do as a parent, and hope the dozens of do-nothing parents in our pack will get a clue next year, step up, and do something. Yes, I am bitter too, KDD.

 

And going to our Council offices and Scout Store doesn't help. It looks like the Taj Mahal. Why do the paid leaders of a volunteer run organization for children need a huge granite building that seems mostly empty and more appropriate for Fortune 500 CEOs? I can't help wondering how much of my little boy's hard earned popcorn sales went to pay for the execs plush offices, and how little went to actually do anything for the kids. A less ostentatious office would have a lot more credibility with me.

 

So, all I can say, is don't go out on any personal limbs for the BSA. They do not have your back as a volunteer.

 

Any other experiences or advice? Thanks for letting me vent.

 

Georgia Mom

 

Last edited by GeorgiaMom; 06-29-2013, 03:46 PM.

 

[Basementdweller]

Here is deleted #9 post

 

Yesterday, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Pack18Alex View Post

...However, the Council, Pack, and CO all told you that it wasn't a problem. ...

Herein lies the problem: The Council, the Pack, and the CO all told me is wasn't a problem, but none of them are qualified to tell me this, nor do they have any authority over my personal tax decisions as a volunteer. None of the people who complained are CPAs, tax lawyers, or any type of tax professional.

 

When I find myself in a situation in which I have good reason to believe I have tax liability (i. e. I'm a bank signatory for a group that hasn't filed any taxes in seven years), I go get professional help. I don't care what the BSA says, the pack leader overheard at roundtable, or the PTA president read on the internet. The PTA president is a stay at home housewife, the pack leader works for a hardware company, and I have no idea who the BSA has on staff trying to tell me what to do. Taxes are a serious responsibility, so I got professional help.

 

The tax professional I consulted for advice told me that I was liable for unpaid taxes and fines as a signatory on the bank account. He said I should get my name removed immediately. I started talking to the pack leaders in March. By June, they still kept telling me they hadn't replaced me as treasurer yet, and I might need to wait until the fall. So, I put my foot down and insisted that they get my name off that account if they had to put their own names on in the interim as signers while they searched for a more permanent replacement treasurer.

 

The tax professional also told me that the IRS could levy approximately $5,000 to $7,000 in fines in our situation, going back all seven years. He advised me to quit as treasurer, and send the end of year pack financials to the PTA with a letter telling them my concerns and what I had found out in our consultation. The CPA said that at least I would be documenting that I tried to get the taxes filed correctly, and this might help me if the IRS investigated.

 

I did exactly that. I sent a simple and polite email to the PTA with the end of year figures and my concerns, with documentation. By dinnertime, I had an angry call from the Council telling me that "everyone" up to the state level of the BSA and the PTA had read my email, they were all very upset, and I might have just "given the state PTA a reason to shut down all PTA sponsored packs statewide". Clearly, I had no idea that getting professional advice could cause problems statewide, nor is it even reasonable that such a thing should happen.

 

The BSA is wrong to be offended that I got professional advice to cover my own liability in a tax mess I had no part in making, nor was I informed about when I took on the treasurer responsibility in good faith. I have lost a great deal of respect for them due to their behavior this spring.

 

The BSA insisted to me in writing that it was the PTA's responsibility to file taxes on behalf of our pack. So, what sense does it make that they'd call my house angry because I gave the PTA the numbers they needed to file the taxes?

 

GeorgiaMom

 

[Pack18Alex]

GeorgiaMom has shown in her few posts here that she has a ton of friction with BSA, her CO, her Pack leadership, etc. If you have a problem with everyone, the problem isn't them, it's you.

 

She was so certain of her righteousness (complete with the nonsense "opinion" of an outside CPA without the facts) that after being told by all involved that she was wrong, she quit scorched earth style.

 

She came here for sympathy, and got told why she was wrong, so she deleted it. I think that reposting her comments is unnecessary, this thread should get wiped, but she wants out of this.

 

I hope she stops personally involving herself in the BSA program at her school, she doesn't enjoy it, those around her don't enjoy her involvement, and her acting like a martyr is putting her son's program and the program of other youth in Georgia at risk.

[Pack18Alex]

BasementDweller, why would she feel guilty about ending BSA programs in her state? She doesn't like the program, doesn't like being involved, doesn't like her district executive, I think she'd be okay with the PTA throwing Scouting out, it might make her feel better that she showed the BSA for giving her a mean phone call.

[Basementdweller]

BasementDweller, why would she feel guilty about ending BSA programs in her state? She doesn't like the program, doesn't like being involved, doesn't like her district executive, I think she'd be okay with the PTA throwing Scouting out, it might make her feel better that she showed the BSA for giving her a mean phone call.

Alex....I don't think that way......I never considered that she may view the BSA as a fundamentally flawed organization of law breakers.

 

You are probably correct, she sees herself as doing a service by trying to get the Georgia PTA association to recommend that PTA/PTO don't charter Packs because of real or imagined tax liabilities.

[Fehler]

For the love of Scouting, please don't anyone tell GeorgiaMom about ISAs and the tax implications and laws regarding non-profit fundraising for individual benefit. Her head will explode.

[jc2008]

BasementDweller, why would she feel guilty about ending BSA programs in her state? She doesn't like the program, doesn't like being involved, doesn't like her district executive, I think she'd be okay with the PTA throwing Scouting out, it might make her feel better that she showed the BSA for giving her a mean phone call.

I think she just started off wrong starting off with the negative. It should have been a more positive discussion with her asking where she should give her numbers for tax purposes, or how that was handled. And if she was told it "wasn't handled" just inquire as to why. Without throwing up all these legalities and penalties.

 

Your charter org should be the absolute last resort of anything after speaking to your pack first and then council. You don't want to cause any waves or trouble for the entity that is nice enough to let you fall under their umbrella if at all possible. You don't want the pta to think there is a bunch of crazy people running the cub scout pack.

 

Stuff does happen with packs and it does make organizations reluctant to charter a new pack. Dealing with this now in our district with a school whos old pack, 6 years ago, had a messy divorce between the cub master and his wife who was the assist cubmaster. The pack fell apart since those two did everything and lots of confused and upset parents calling the principle (not even the pta) about the situation.

 

If you want to make a mess you better be sure it is worth it because you could burn a bridge. If it was a child safety issue and your pack or council wouldn't help (i doubt this but it could happen), then yes make a mess.

 

But finances and taxes, try to handle it in house positively. People respond to positive things better than negative accusations.

[Kristian]

GeorgiaMom has shown in her few posts here that she has a ton of friction with BSA, her CO, her Pack leadership, etc. If you have a problem with everyone, the problem isn't them, it's you.

 

She was so certain of her righteousness (complete with the nonsense "opinion" of an outside CPA without the facts) that after being told by all involved that she was wrong, she quit scorched earth style.

 

She came here for sympathy, and got told why she was wrong, so she deleted it. I think that reposting her comments is unnecessary, this thread should get wiped, but she wants out of this.

 

I hope she stops personally involving herself in the BSA program at her school, she doesn't enjoy it, those around her don't enjoy her involvement, and her acting like a martyr is putting her son's program and the program of other youth in Georgia at risk.

she isnt wrong. and saying she is putting scouting in georgia at risk by actually following the law is one of those reasons why bsa has been loosing so many lawsuits lately.

[Faith]

This thread has taught me to never, ever get involved in the financial side of scouting. Hope y'all get it sorted out GM and that it does not hurt the scouts' program in the long run.

[blw2]

Wow, is right. You folks are brutal!

granted, she may have been in the wrong, but keep in mind that we are all trying to do our best. Seems like she was misguided and perhaps a bit overenthusiastic, but i'd guess she was only trying to do what she felt was right.

 

maybe there's a history here that I don't know..... & maybe I missed something critical in my skimming of this thread.....

 

but what I see is......

 

Came here for support.

Should have gotten some guidance.

Got flamed.

[Faith]

Wow, is right. You folks are brutal!

granted, she may have been in the wrong, but keep in mind that we are all trying to do our best. Seems like she was misguided and perhaps a bit overenthusiastic, but i'd guess she was only trying to do what she felt was right.

 

maybe there's a history here that I don't know..... & maybe I missed something critical in my skimming of this thread.....

 

but what I see is......

 

Came here for support.

Should have gotten some guidance.

Got flamed.

 

When I first joined this forum I thought it was a happy little family, helping one another out, etc. Booooy where did I get that idea from. You said exactly what I wanted to but words escaped me. Some of the adults here act like the teens I moderate on a day to day basis. Yes, she may have went against what most would have done or chose the flat out wrong way of handling it (again I don't know all the rules/regulations for this kind of thing so I personally cannot say) but some of the comments here are just downright rude and uncalled for. I've learned over the past month its easier for some to attack instead of inform - that's the way of the internet. Hopefully these same principles are not being taught to fellow scouts (if someone does wrong, explain why, don't stoop below your own level for the sake of being catty or cute.)

[Pack18Alex]

Wow, is right. You folks are brutal!

granted, she may have been in the wrong, but keep in mind that we are all trying to do our best. Seems like she was misguided and perhaps a bit overenthusiastic, but i'd guess she was only trying to do what she felt was right.

 

maybe there's a history here that I don't know..... & maybe I missed something critical in my skimming of this thread.....

 

but what I see is......

 

Came here for support.

Should have gotten some guidance.

Got flamed.

Except this is true with all her posts... She comes on, tells us how great she is and terrible everyone around her is... when the other side is pointed out to her, she doubles down and adds insulting us to the process.

 

Deciding that she should look into this was wonderful and overenthusiastic. Getting involved in the tax question without understanding the structure (and therefore she got an incorrect answer from the CPA, who answered HER question correctly, but she asked the wrong question) is overenthusiasm from a volunteer. It was when she went off half cocked DESPITE experienced people telling her she went wrong that she loses sympathy.

 

If the concern was her personal liability, she immediately resigns, hands a report to the Committee Chair, and gets out of it.

 

But since she was upset about how she was told she was wrong, she didn't care who she hurt.

 

Or do you believe that the "email that upset the state PTA and put scouting in jeopardy" was a polite and factual email with the financials for including in their tax return, or do you think it was the same "OMG, taxes weren't paid, we're all going to get fined" that her posts on here were? Remember, the result of the email was a 1 hour tirade from her district executive?

[Pack18Alex]

GeorgiaMom has shown in her few posts here that she has a ton of friction with BSA, her CO, her Pack leadership, etc. If you have a problem with everyone, the problem isn't them, it's you.

 

She was so certain of her righteousness (complete with the nonsense "opinion" of an outside CPA without the facts) that after being told by all involved that she was wrong, she quit scorched earth style.

 

She came here for sympathy, and got told why she was wrong, so she deleted it. I think that reposting her comments is unnecessary, this thread should get wiped, but she wants out of this.

 

I hope she stops personally involving herself in the BSA program at her school, she doesn't enjoy it, those around her don't enjoy her involvement, and her acting like a martyr is putting her son's program and the program of other youth in Georgia at risk.

Okay, if she's not wrong, what Tax Form was not filed by the Cub Scout Pack that has a potential set of fines of $49,000 as she was "told by her CPA."

 

I maintain that the Pack is either a organizational unit of the PTA (same EIN), or a sub-group of the PTA (with a "For Banking Purposes Only" EIN), that has no legal owner and is part of the PTA. The financially from the Cub Scout Pack should be reported annually to the Charter Organizational Representative who brings them to the Charter Org financial person, who would incorporate them as part of the PTA's Balance Sheet/Income Statement (in the Corporate World with separate corporations becoming disregarded entities, this would be a consolidated return), and turn in the 990N (postcard return). I maintain that there is no missing tax return by the pack, nor did her Scout's financials materially impact any IRS reports due from the PTA to the IRS.

 

If she is right, and everyone on here, in her committee, in her district, and in her Charter Org is wrong, then answer these questions that I posed to her:

 

1. What tax returns that the cub scouts were alleged by her to fail to file should be filed?

2. What law was not being followed that she was trying to follow?