LGBT: Critical Mass?

[King Ding Dong]

JBlake - Romanticizing your youth is a sign of getting old.. Your Parents did it, Your Grandparents did it, Your Great-Great Grandparents did it, Your Great-Great-Great Grandparents did it. People who grew up in the time of the Great Depression still could romanticize that time period.

 

I had a conversation with someone at work who was stuck in romanticizing his childhood of the '50's also.. Watch all the old 1950's shows now and think Wow those were the days.. Like that wasn't a plastic made up world of perfection.. Let's forget about the fact child abuse was simply taken care of by turning a blind eye to it, same with wives that were abused. Rape was the womens fault.. Ask an African American if they feel the 1950's was the most perfect time period for them, especially if they lived in the south..

 

Not that I think today is wonderful, just that the 1950's wasn't all that either, nor were the 1930's, nor were the 1900's, nor were the 1880's..

At zoos all across the country Christians are routinely fed to the lions. Google it.

[Stosh]

Are you saying Cortez was a missionary? Coronado? OK we all know that indigenous peoples did a WHOLE lot better after their lands were settled by those Christian people..yeah,.right!

 

Like I mentioned before, if you look at the areas of THIS country that already resemble that 'third world' you seem not to admire, those are mostly areas in the Bible Belt and which local societies most closely match, it seems, YOUR values. And also, like I noted before, I can name third world countries that are far more heavily influenced by 'The Church' than the USA.

 

You're claiming credit for Christianity that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, not even a little bit.

Everyone of those expeditions had required clergy with them. You also must remember Father Marquette lead the first expedition that explored the Great Lakes/Mississippi connection.

 

I never said the established Christianity of Europe was all that benign. After all, those same institutions were the ones the Puritians and others were fleeing from to form the colonies. And that emphasizes the point I was making in the first place. Yes, the US is far different than the other countries in the Western Hemisphere. It was based on a different set of principles than what they were fleeing Europe. It became the strongest most influential country of the Western Hemisphere because of it.

[packsaddle]

Are you saying Cortez was a missionary? Coronado? OK we all know that indigenous peoples did a WHOLE lot better after their lands were settled by those Christian people..yeah,.right!

 

Like I mentioned before, if you look at the areas of THIS country that already resemble that 'third world' you seem not to admire, those are mostly areas in the Bible Belt and which local societies most closely match, it seems, YOUR values. And also, like I noted before, I can name third world countries that are far more heavily influenced by 'The Church' than the USA.

 

You're claiming credit for Christianity that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, not even a little bit.

Thing is, that very correct uniqueness that you have identified is a strong argument against Christianity as the reason. Christianity is and has been dominant lots of places. It has, by your account, only been associated with ONE place like the USA. I repeat what my statistics friends like to say, rare events occur with a probability of 1. But they are still rare events, and hardly the basis for a trend or the kind of sweeping generalizations you're trying to make.

[skeptic]

All of you that appear to want to blame all the cruelty and savageness on Christianity or religion in general should not forget that it exists and existed in similar levels or worse in most of the world before the Europeans brought their culture (?) to share. More likely, it is simply the proof that humans very often have an innate propensity towards these things. But one might also make a case for religion, if proponents actually live up to the tenets most propose as reflected in the idea of the "Golden Rule" (which is found in some form in most major belief structures), can be given some credit for mollifying savagery in some native societies. That is not to deny how negatively affected many have been by missionary efforts around the world. Yet there are many examples of real kindness and effective proselyting leading to reduction of savagery in some cultural groups as well.

 

Still, those of us that claim to be Christian or dedicated to other religious principles that claim love and kindness, have considerable room for improvement. That "free choice" thing and innate nature can be really difficult to overcome. Just the same, community outreach by churches, temples, mosques and so on contribute much more to their variant communities than many realize. Take a lot of it away, and the loss would be noticeable, possibly even detrimental in some cases.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

Are you saying Cortez was a missionary? Coronado? OK we all know that indigenous peoples did a WHOLE lot better after their lands were settled by those Christian people..yeah,.right!

 

Like I mentioned before, if you look at the areas of THIS country that already resemble that 'third world' you seem not to admire, those are mostly areas in the Bible Belt and which local societies most closely match, it seems, YOUR values. And also, like I noted before, I can name third world countries that are far more heavily influenced by 'The Church' than the USA.

 

You're claiming credit for Christianity that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, not even a little bit.

If civilization after civilization collapses because of Factor X and one lone statistic anomaly succeeds because of Factor Y, why would any sane person ever want to go along with Factor X. I guess it all boils down to misery loves company. The Great American Experiment worked as long as it stuck to the plan. However, deviation after deviation has simply put us back into the nice try, too bad category as we see the rope slipping through our fingers.

 

Seriously I only worry about the situation we find ourselves in. If for 300+ years it held the Great American Experiment together, and now we are experiencing a subtle but steady decline, then I'm all in favor of the conservative approach rather than start a new "experiment" of failed policies that other countries tried and are abandoning because they didn't work. Of course once "critical mass" has been crossed, it really doesn't matter anymore. Just another name added to a long list of failed civilizations.

 

I guess I'm just a strong believer in: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

Your mileage may vary.

[packsaddle]

Cruelty? Savageness? Where did THAT come from? Look at the title of this thread. This is about gay rights. Besides who is blaming those two things on Christianity? What jblake47 claims is that the principles of Christianity are what made our country the great country that it is. I'm just disagreeing with that claim. I also happen to think that all citizens should have the same rights and for some reason, jblake47 seems to think that puts this country into some kind of 'death spiral' or something. Good grief!

 

I challenge anyone to explain why the principle that all citizens should have the same basic rights is NOT conservative. Go ahead. Ross Perot here...I'm all ears.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Are you saying Cortez was a missionary? Coronado? OK we all know that indigenous peoples did a WHOLE lot better after their lands were settled by those Christian people..yeah,.right!

 

Like I mentioned before, if you look at the areas of THIS country that already resemble that 'third world' you seem not to admire, those are mostly areas in the Bible Belt and which local societies most closely match, it seems, YOUR values. And also, like I noted before, I can name third world countries that are far more heavily influenced by 'The Church' than the USA.

 

You're claiming credit for Christianity that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, not even a little bit.

If civilization after civilization collapses because of Factor X and one lone statistic anomaly succeeds because of Factor Y, why would any sane person ever want to go along with Factor X

 

Factor X being "people who forget 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc' is a fallacy." Every time too many people forget this, their civilization collapses.

[ThomasJefferson]

The principles of Christianity made our country great? I would like to read the evidence for that claim. What in our history says that religion was responsible for American success? Will we even be able to agree on what American success looks like and what examples of it are? I doubt it.

 

I believe a few particular people and events are what made our country great in terms of government process: Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson (the real one) were hyper-intelligent men. They were also not particularly religious people. Their input was instrumental in everything that went on in the late 1700's. The singular event in our history more important than any other was Washington stepping down after two terms and refusing power. That was truly a noble act. I doubt any of our leaders today would be so pure of heart in his position. We owe him a great deal.

 

Unfortunately, I would also say that today American government is no longer the government of the founders. We tweaked things here and there, and with the addition of technology, we've made a mess. We were advised by Washington to avoid alliances and enemies both, but we seem to have cornered the market. Our president was to be chosen by the Senate, but now he is popularly elected, as are senators who were to be selected by their states using whatever process they preferred including appointment. The states now have no voice in government. No one could have foreseen the willingness to read emails while outlawing the reading of physical mail without permission. No one could have imagined we would have this military might and that we would repeatedly, over and over, stupidly use it in a way that created more problems than it solved.

 

I imagine Ben Franklin, once he got over the shock of being here, would be quite disappointed at what happened to Camelot. We had a chance at true greatness, but we became a paranoid, superstitious, arrogant people who eschew our own geniuses of our day and rebuke those who call BS on our bad habits and hard choices. We believe we are the saviors of the world rather than its humble occupants and helpers. We can't balance a budget, but we can store every phone record.

 

I think maybe the USA is headed to totalitarianism, and it is too late to stop it. We're in the equivalent of 1933 in Germany. We're all arguing about what it means, but the dominoes are already falling and we've already cast our lot. It's done. It cannot be undone. It makes me sad.

 

I imagine the US as this awesome country dedicated to freedom and justice for all, but too many videos of cops beating people senseless, too many innocent people charged with crimes, too much spying by the government, too many laws, too many tax guys seizing property, too many bankers walking off scott free while we get laid off, and too many lobbyists able to corrupt too many weak men and women in office... I think I've lost hope in our system.

 

What makes America great? I cannot agree we are great. We are mighty. But that might doesn't seem to be used for good.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Egad!!!!!!

[packsaddle]

Egad!!!!!!

Sorry about the exclamation points, I needed 10 characters.

[acco40]

The principles of Christianity made our country great? I would like to read the evidence for that claim. What in our history says that religion was responsible for American success? Will we even be able to agree on what American success looks like and what examples of it are? I doubt it.

 

I believe a few particular people and events are what made our country great in terms of government process: Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson (the real one) were hyper-intelligent men. They were also not particularly religious people. Their input was instrumental in everything that went on in the late 1700's. The singular event in our history more important than any other was Washington stepping down after two terms and refusing power. That was truly a noble act. I doubt any of our leaders today would be so pure of heart in his position. We owe him a great deal.

 

Unfortunately, I would also say that today American government is no longer the government of the founders. We tweaked things here and there, and with the addition of technology, we've made a mess. We were advised by Washington to avoid alliances and enemies both, but we seem to have cornered the market. Our president was to be chosen by the Senate, but now he is popularly elected, as are senators who were to be selected by their states using whatever process they preferred including appointment. The states now have no voice in government. No one could have foreseen the willingness to read emails while outlawing the reading of physical mail without permission. No one could have imagined we would have this military might and that we would repeatedly, over and over, stupidly use it in a way that created more problems than it solved.

 

I imagine Ben Franklin, once he got over the shock of being here, would be quite disappointed at what happened to Camelot. We had a chance at true greatness, but we became a paranoid, superstitious, arrogant people who eschew our own geniuses of our day and rebuke those who call BS on our bad habits and hard choices. We believe we are the saviors of the world rather than its humble occupants and helpers. We can't balance a budget, but we can store every phone record.

 

I think maybe the USA is headed to totalitarianism, and it is too late to stop it. We're in the equivalent of 1933 in Germany. We're all arguing about what it means, but the dominoes are already falling and we've already cast our lot. It's done. It cannot be undone. It makes me sad.

 

I imagine the US as this awesome country dedicated to freedom and justice for all, but too many videos of cops beating people senseless, too many innocent people charged with crimes, too much spying by the government, too many laws, too many tax guys seizing property, too many bankers walking off scott free while we get laid off, and too many lobbyists able to corrupt too many weak men and women in office... I think I've lost hope in our system.

 

What makes America great? I cannot agree we are great. We are mighty. But that might doesn't seem to be used for good.

 

The USA is a great country founded on basic religious principles (not necessarily Christian) but populated with a multitude of "not so great" citizens that do lie, cheat, steal, beat and conduct themselves in other nefarious ways. Be careful of the 1933 Germany comment, we may not be a nation under God, but we surely do follow Godwin's Law.

[skeptic]

Are you saying Cortez was a missionary? Coronado? OK we all know that indigenous peoples did a WHOLE lot better after their lands were settled by those Christian people..yeah,.right!

 

Like I mentioned before, if you look at the areas of THIS country that already resemble that 'third world' you seem not to admire, those are mostly areas in the Bible Belt and which local societies most closely match, it seems, YOUR values. And also, like I noted before, I can name third world countries that are far more heavily influenced by 'The Church' than the USA.

 

You're claiming credit for Christianity that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, not even a little bit.

 

Pack; while you did not use the terms, the suggestion is there in my opinion. I am simply saying that maybe we should blame it less on the religion or religious, and more on people that are not following the tenets they espouse, but just doing what appears pretty common to many in the world.

[packsaddle]

Repeat, I challenge anyone to explain why the principle that all citizens should have the same basic rights is NOT conservative.

[Stosh]

Repeat, I challenge anyone to explain why the principle that all citizens should have the same basic rights is NOT conservative.

I'll bite, what basic right are we talking about here?

[packsaddle]

Repeat, I challenge anyone to explain why the principle that all citizens should have the same basic rights is NOT conservative.

Are you saying that you disagree with that principle?

 

The challenge was to explain why the principle of equal rights for all citizens is not conservative. It's about the principle, not specific rights.