LGBT: Critical Mass?

[packsaddle]

Eagledad, they aren't lonely when they visit my home or when they're with the same circle of real friends that I have. This is because we don't reject them because of who they are. They are accepted fully just like everyone else and they know it and sense it in our interactions. That might explain why they seem 'lonely' around you. Or...it could be you're merely a poor judge of these things.

 

 

 

So, what is this 'normal' concept you mentioned in your comment? Is it the same 'normal' that everyone else sees, or is it a personal concept in your own mind?

 

 

 

And you also mentioned, "...some people consider the desire for a mate of the same sex as more mature than the desires of any other kind of relationship."

 

Huh? More mature? What do you mean by this, both parts, the 'mature' thing and the 'more' thing?

Then answer my actual questions.

[packsaddle]

Im saying that your self righteous to think that only your are capable of treating all people equally even when you don't agree with everything about them.

OK, if it makes you feel better, I'm self-righteous. OK?

Now, you're still free to answer the actual questions I asked.

[Eagledad]

Im saying that your self righteous to think that only your are capable of treating all people equally even when you don't agree with everything about them.

Which one? My editor is a real pain, so just pick one.

[packsaddle]

Im saying that your self righteous to think that only your are capable of treating all people equally even when you don't agree with everything about them.

Here's what you wrote:

 

"It amazes me that some people consider the desire for a mate of the same sex as more mature than the desires of any other kind of relationship. Folks keep wanting to equalize homosexuality as a normal healthy lifestyle when my observations of friends and family are anything but. Oh sure, some gays find a stable relastionship, but that isn't normal for that lifestyle. On the whole, gays are some of the loneliest people I know."

 

I asked for you to clarify, "what is this 'normal' concept you mentioned in your comment? Is it the same 'normal' that everyone else sees, or is it a personal concept in your own mind?"

 

And then I asked again, "More mature? What do you mean by this, both parts, the 'mature' thing and the 'more' thing?"

 

Those are the questions that I asked.

[Eagledad]

Normal in that reference is a heterosexual sexual relationship. More mature meaning that sex with another person of the same sex is considered healthy while the desire for sex with the horse is not.

[Stosh]

A number of years ago I heard someone say that the 10 Commandments of Judeo-Christian origin were nothing more than the minimum requirements for civilization. Having pondered that over the years it seems that any code of conduct (normally derived from some religious source) seems to be the du jour for any particular society. Everyone has some sort of code. They tend to be fluid and never absolute. With that being said as modern cultures collide so do the underlying societal codes. One culture might think that beheading is the way to go to correct the outcast, others toss rocks and still others do the hanging/electric chair thingy. Firing squads seem to prefer the military codes.

 

While in feudal or tribal societies this cross-over is kept at a minimum. This was eventually replaced by larger groupings and the rise of nationalism seemed to dictate the limits, but as long as those lines are clear cut and everyone plays by the rules, (when in Rome do as the Romans) nothing is going to do much to stir the pot. But with the information age and somewhat "global village" mentality emerging, these rules are becoming more and more in conflict with each other. Every fundamental Christian will rally to the death over the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman, while their historical roots are firmly entrenched in polygamy. For thousands of years arranged marriages dominated the countryside, but not in our culture.

 

Depending on how far one wants to carry the issue, most Americans would abhor eating bugs, while the people of India would rather die than chomp into a McDonald's Big-Mac. In some cultures young men at the age of 13 are considered adults and are free to take a mate. One would be arrested in the US for such a thing and label a child abuser. For all the Fundamentals out there, remember Joseph was an older gentleman who took Mary a very young teen as a mate. He would be arrested today in America.

 

So were does that leave us today??? Bickering and fighting until the cows come home probably. Society is changing, some for the good, some for the bad (remember all major civilizations have collapsed after but a few years of their Golden Ages.) The handwriting is on the wall. Adjust. With the pace of society changing as rapidly as it does in the "modern" world, it only means those changes are going to happen that much faster and if there is any societal decline it will be at the same pace. Maybe it's time to read the handwriting on the wall.

 

[packsaddle]

A number of years ago I heard someone say that the 10 Commandments of Judeo-Christian origin were nothing more than the minimum requirements for civilization. Having pondered that over the years it seems that any code of conduct (normally derived from some religious source) seems to be the du jour for any particular society. Everyone has some sort of code. They tend to be fluid and never absolute. With that being said as modern cultures collide so do the underlying societal codes. One culture might think that beheading is the way to go to correct the outcast, others toss rocks and still others do the hanging/electric chair thingy. Firing squads seem to prefer the military codes.

 

While in feudal or tribal societies this cross-over is kept at a minimum. This was eventually replaced by larger groupings and the rise of nationalism seemed to dictate the limits, but as long as those lines are clear cut and everyone plays by the rules, (when in Rome do as the Romans) nothing is going to do much to stir the pot. But with the information age and somewhat "global village" mentality emerging, these rules are becoming more and more in conflict with each other. Every fundamental Christian will rally to the death over the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman, while their historical roots are firmly entrenched in polygamy. For thousands of years arranged marriages dominated the countryside, but not in our culture.

 

Depending on how far one wants to carry the issue, most Americans would abhor eating bugs, while the people of India would rather die than chomp into a McDonald's Big-Mac. In some cultures young men at the age of 13 are considered adults and are free to take a mate. One would be arrested in the US for such a thing and label a child abuser. For all the Fundamentals out there, remember Joseph was an older gentleman who took Mary a very young teen as a mate. He would be arrested today in America.

 

So were does that leave us today??? Bickering and fighting until the cows come home probably. Society is changing, some for the good, some for the bad (remember all major civilizations have collapsed after but a few years of their Golden Ages.) The handwriting is on the wall. Adjust. With the pace of society changing as rapidly as it does in the "modern" world, it only means those changes are going to happen that much faster and if there is any societal decline it will be at the same pace. Maybe it's time to read the handwriting on the wall.

There is another old thread that you probably remember, started by Trevorum and titled, "The times they are a'changing" or something like that. And I agree. It is an evolutionary truism that those entities that cannot adapt to change tend to experience the selective process in a negative way.

 

BTW: http://www.mcdonaldsindia.net/burgers-and-wraps.aspx

 

Some of those are quite tasty.

[moosetracker]

Protecting the right of gay people to get married should be a conservative issue. You've go two people, in a committed relationship, who want to get married and raise a family together, taking equal responsibility for their children. This is what conservatives have campaigned for for many years.

OK.. How's, this.. I disagree with your statement that a healthy family starts with a mom and a dad.. It starts with a group of people live with each other and who care for and protect each other.. If that includes children, then a health family is loving, protecting and making those children feel secure.. Laws should work to protect that family in making them feel secure and able to protect and care for each other.. the should not work against that family in order to rip them apart in a time of crisis.. Death of a parent (where custody may be in question and/or property subject to death taxes), health problems of someone in the family (either with ability to visit in the hospital, or put them on your health plan).. Marriage of same-sex couples should guarantee them the same rights as heterosexual couples..

 

The argument to make some separate but equal thingy will just not work due to peoples prejudices.. Proof is with the separate but equal for blacks.. Prejudice will find ways to hurt the family's they disapprove of.. would change with what Politian was in office, protect the family with laws, rip those laws away from them.. Put the laws back in place, rip them away..

 

This does not help to create a healthy family or a safe and secure environment.. But, the problem is not within the family unit, but due to prejudice people who need to stick their nose in and attempt to destroy and hurt that which they dislike..

[Stosh]

A number of years ago I heard someone say that the 10 Commandments of Judeo-Christian origin were nothing more than the minimum requirements for civilization. Having pondered that over the years it seems that any code of conduct (normally derived from some religious source) seems to be the du jour for any particular society. Everyone has some sort of code. They tend to be fluid and never absolute. With that being said as modern cultures collide so do the underlying societal codes. One culture might think that beheading is the way to go to correct the outcast, others toss rocks and still others do the hanging/electric chair thingy. Firing squads seem to prefer the military codes.

 

While in feudal or tribal societies this cross-over is kept at a minimum. This was eventually replaced by larger groupings and the rise of nationalism seemed to dictate the limits, but as long as those lines are clear cut and everyone plays by the rules, (when in Rome do as the Romans) nothing is going to do much to stir the pot. But with the information age and somewhat "global village" mentality emerging, these rules are becoming more and more in conflict with each other. Every fundamental Christian will rally to the death over the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman, while their historical roots are firmly entrenched in polygamy. For thousands of years arranged marriages dominated the countryside, but not in our culture.

 

Depending on how far one wants to carry the issue, most Americans would abhor eating bugs, while the people of India would rather die than chomp into a McDonald's Big-Mac. In some cultures young men at the age of 13 are considered adults and are free to take a mate. One would be arrested in the US for such a thing and label a child abuser. For all the Fundamentals out there, remember Joseph was an older gentleman who took Mary a very young teen as a mate. He would be arrested today in America.

 

So were does that leave us today??? Bickering and fighting until the cows come home probably. Society is changing, some for the good, some for the bad (remember all major civilizations have collapsed after but a few years of their Golden Ages.) The handwriting is on the wall. Adjust. With the pace of society changing as rapidly as it does in the "modern" world, it only means those changes are going to happen that much faster and if there is any societal decline it will be at the same pace. Maybe it's time to read the handwriting on the wall.

Oh, I'm not at all promoting the idea that a society will adapt and change, I'm more in favor of the historical truism that the culture will collapse entirely and need to be rebuilt all over again. That seems to be the predominant course of action. Those that adapt and change may take a bit longer (Holy Roman Empire), but eventually they collapse as well. Who would have thought that the mighty Roman Empire would fall (and it wasn't that it was too big), and be replaced by the Holy Roman Empire only to be ravaged by the tribes of northern Europe, toss in a few Asian Mongols and you will soon realize that starting all over from scratch means starting all over from scratch. A few tribes, a few wars, and the cycle simply repeats itself all over again. The world changes all the time, but humans remain basically the same. Small clans of like minded people hanging on to common survival don't need many codes to survive. Then the clans merge into tribes, etc. etc. and eventually it will build and finally collapse. Don't believe me? Look at Rome 2000 years ago, then Italy with the Rennaissance, followed by the rise of colonialism that engulfed the world as nationalism drew itself into the game, Italy followed by the Spanish, then with fall of the Armada England takes over as world power, followed then with the collapse of WWI, Hitler's rise to world power status in but a few short years only to collapse back into the void. Out of the ashes rose Russia and US, Russia takes a dive, US is next and the new emerging super power is China, They are about where we were in the 50's and 60's. Think not??? who owns our land? Who just bought a chunk of our food supply, where are more than half the consumer goods being produced?

 

And our main concern is whether or not homosexuals can get married?

 

Critical Mass? We've been on a slippery slope for 20 years and most people haven't even noticed. I wonder how much faster we need to slide before the people of this country will be eating trees instead of hugging them.

 

I wonder what the teachings of Mao have to say about homosexuality. Might be kinda nice to know.

[packsaddle]

A number of years ago I heard someone say that the 10 Commandments of Judeo-Christian origin were nothing more than the minimum requirements for civilization. Having pondered that over the years it seems that any code of conduct (normally derived from some religious source) seems to be the du jour for any particular society. Everyone has some sort of code. They tend to be fluid and never absolute. With that being said as modern cultures collide so do the underlying societal codes. One culture might think that beheading is the way to go to correct the outcast, others toss rocks and still others do the hanging/electric chair thingy. Firing squads seem to prefer the military codes.

 

While in feudal or tribal societies this cross-over is kept at a minimum. This was eventually replaced by larger groupings and the rise of nationalism seemed to dictate the limits, but as long as those lines are clear cut and everyone plays by the rules, (when in Rome do as the Romans) nothing is going to do much to stir the pot. But with the information age and somewhat "global village" mentality emerging, these rules are becoming more and more in conflict with each other. Every fundamental Christian will rally to the death over the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman, while their historical roots are firmly entrenched in polygamy. For thousands of years arranged marriages dominated the countryside, but not in our culture.

 

Depending on how far one wants to carry the issue, most Americans would abhor eating bugs, while the people of India would rather die than chomp into a McDonald's Big-Mac. In some cultures young men at the age of 13 are considered adults and are free to take a mate. One would be arrested in the US for such a thing and label a child abuser. For all the Fundamentals out there, remember Joseph was an older gentleman who took Mary a very young teen as a mate. He would be arrested today in America.

 

So were does that leave us today??? Bickering and fighting until the cows come home probably. Society is changing, some for the good, some for the bad (remember all major civilizations have collapsed after but a few years of their Golden Ages.) The handwriting is on the wall. Adjust. With the pace of society changing as rapidly as it does in the "modern" world, it only means those changes are going to happen that much faster and if there is any societal decline it will be at the same pace. Maybe it's time to read the handwriting on the wall.

Slippery slope? C'mon, I've been hearing that stuff my whole life. It was Communist infiltrators and racial integration in the 1950s. It was rock music, Beatlemania, long hair, the Vietnam War in the 1960s. This nonsense is perpetual and yes, once in a while there actually IS a collapse of some kind and it just energizes the 'chicken littles' to continue their rants. What moral decay was it that caused the Inca Empire to collapse on itself? Aztecs? I'd mention the British Empire but I might offend our friends across the pond who think it still exists.

 

As far as concern about gay marriage goes, I am not the least bit concerned by it. As far as I can tell, gay marriage seems to be mostly the concern of a perspective that seems to be consumed by things sexual. Gay marriage doesn't concern me at all. Gays should be granted the same rights as other citizens, including marriage. No problem.

[Stosh]

A number of years ago I heard someone say that the 10 Commandments of Judeo-Christian origin were nothing more than the minimum requirements for civilization. Having pondered that over the years it seems that any code of conduct (normally derived from some religious source) seems to be the du jour for any particular society. Everyone has some sort of code. They tend to be fluid and never absolute. With that being said as modern cultures collide so do the underlying societal codes. One culture might think that beheading is the way to go to correct the outcast, others toss rocks and still others do the hanging/electric chair thingy. Firing squads seem to prefer the military codes.

 

While in feudal or tribal societies this cross-over is kept at a minimum. This was eventually replaced by larger groupings and the rise of nationalism seemed to dictate the limits, but as long as those lines are clear cut and everyone plays by the rules, (when in Rome do as the Romans) nothing is going to do much to stir the pot. But with the information age and somewhat "global village" mentality emerging, these rules are becoming more and more in conflict with each other. Every fundamental Christian will rally to the death over the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman, while their historical roots are firmly entrenched in polygamy. For thousands of years arranged marriages dominated the countryside, but not in our culture.

 

Depending on how far one wants to carry the issue, most Americans would abhor eating bugs, while the people of India would rather die than chomp into a McDonald's Big-Mac. In some cultures young men at the age of 13 are considered adults and are free to take a mate. One would be arrested in the US for such a thing and label a child abuser. For all the Fundamentals out there, remember Joseph was an older gentleman who took Mary a very young teen as a mate. He would be arrested today in America.

 

So were does that leave us today??? Bickering and fighting until the cows come home probably. Society is changing, some for the good, some for the bad (remember all major civilizations have collapsed after but a few years of their Golden Ages.) The handwriting is on the wall. Adjust. With the pace of society changing as rapidly as it does in the "modern" world, it only means those changes are going to happen that much faster and if there is any societal decline it will be at the same pace. Maybe it's time to read the handwriting on the wall.

Yep, anyone who doesn't want to look closely at the world around them can, with a mere flip of one's hand write off the conspiratorists pretty easily. Yet the world of a mere 50 years ago was far different than what we see today. Natural Mom, Dad and kids were not the rarity we have today. Kids today really do have a village of fighting ex's raising them. Marriage has taken more of hit with divorce than what homosexuality can ever do. Parents are paranoid for the safety of their children. Bicycles are not for kids anymore, they are ridden by spandex advertised cool sports minded people. The instant communication of 50 years ago took 2-3 days to "instantly" let everyone back home get a view of some disaster somewhere in the world. Now one can watch live immediately on our smart phones. Women in the workforce instead of home "raising the kids" Latch key kids are everywhere Kids today aren't raised by parents, they are raised by nannies, and day care workers. I used to think how terrible it was in the Soviet Union that made both parents work and the kids were shipped off to day care centers. I wonder if that's where we're headed? Nope, already there.

 

Drugs? Don't even go there.

 

Crime? We used to think the St. Valentines Day massacre was terrible with organized crime and all. Heck a Mexican cartel does that kind of a thing on a daily basis.

 

Communism was tried in Russia and China, socialism spread eventually into the European theater where they are now struggling economically. BTW, Russia and China are back at the altar of capitalism making a bundle in the process. Say, were are all those American jobs going, nowadays?

 

Conceal Carry is a big thing. Heck I thought we gave that up with Wyatt Earp and Jessie James.

 

Homeland security is 1984's Big Brother for real.

 

The US used to be a land of opportunity, but with all the bureaucratic red tape, see how that's going to work out for you.

 

I for one has lived long enough to have seen a steady decline in what used to be a really good thing.

 

I wonder what kind of world my grandchildren will have. I know that it surely isn't going to be as good as the one I had. Even in the midst of the Cold War, I always thought I grew up in the Golden Age of America. My parents gave me a life better than they had, but I couldn't do it for my kids and they haven't been able to do it for the grand-kids either.

 

One can say all they want about 2013 with it's technology, crime, gangs, divorce, fear of predators, needing the carry guns, etc and I can always offer that the worse thing that happened in 1963 was Kennedy being assassinated. Yet the very next day we still took our sack lunches (which back then were legal) and rode our bikes to school, dad had the car and so there wasn't much choice, it was either walk or ride your bike.

 

I know what I lived through, I don't need some sort of conspiracy theory to prop up my story. I seriously don't think all the progress we think we've made over the past 50 years is all that its cracked up to be. All in all I think that we are definitely in decline mode in America.

[moosetracker]

JBlake - Romanticizing your youth is a sign of getting old.. Your Parents did it, Your Grandparents did it, Your Great-Great Grandparents did it, Your Great-Great-Great Grandparents did it. People who grew up in the time of the Great Depression still could romanticize that time period.

 

I had a conversation with someone at work who was stuck in romanticizing his childhood of the '50's also.. Watch all the old 1950's shows now and think Wow those were the days.. Like that wasn't a plastic made up world of perfection.. Let's forget about the fact child abuse was simply taken care of by turning a blind eye to it, same with wives that were abused. Rape was the womens fault.. Ask an African American if they feel the 1950's was the most perfect time period for them, especially if they lived in the south..

 

Not that I think today is wonderful, just that the 1950's wasn't all that either, nor were the 1930's, nor were the 1900's, nor were the 1880's..

[st0ut717]

A number of years ago I heard someone say that the 10 Commandments of Judeo-Christian origin were nothing more than the minimum requirements for civilization. Having pondered that over the years it seems that any code of conduct (normally derived from some religious source) seems to be the du jour for any particular society. Everyone has some sort of code. They tend to be fluid and never absolute. With that being said as modern cultures collide so do the underlying societal codes. One culture might think that beheading is the way to go to correct the outcast, others toss rocks and still others do the hanging/electric chair thingy. Firing squads seem to prefer the military codes.

 

While in feudal or tribal societies this cross-over is kept at a minimum. This was eventually replaced by larger groupings and the rise of nationalism seemed to dictate the limits, but as long as those lines are clear cut and everyone plays by the rules, (when in Rome do as the Romans) nothing is going to do much to stir the pot. But with the information age and somewhat "global village" mentality emerging, these rules are becoming more and more in conflict with each other. Every fundamental Christian will rally to the death over the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman, while their historical roots are firmly entrenched in polygamy. For thousands of years arranged marriages dominated the countryside, but not in our culture.

 

Depending on how far one wants to carry the issue, most Americans would abhor eating bugs, while the people of India would rather die than chomp into a McDonald's Big-Mac. In some cultures young men at the age of 13 are considered adults and are free to take a mate. One would be arrested in the US for such a thing and label a child abuser. For all the Fundamentals out there, remember Joseph was an older gentleman who took Mary a very young teen as a mate. He would be arrested today in America.

 

So were does that leave us today??? Bickering and fighting until the cows come home probably. Society is changing, some for the good, some for the bad (remember all major civilizations have collapsed after but a few years of their Golden Ages.) The handwriting is on the wall. Adjust. With the pace of society changing as rapidly as it does in the "modern" world, it only means those changes are going to happen that much faster and if there is any societal decline it will be at the same pace. Maybe it's time to read the handwriting on the wall.

Since you enjoy history just a few examples:

 

Because of the polices and social stigma of homosexuality in the the past Alan Turing committed suicide. Homosexuality has always been a part of society through out history.

 

It was encouraged in some. Greek, Roman for example.

 

in the late 19th century kids where using farm fence wire to sext each other via morse code.

 

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for

authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place

of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their

households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They

contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties

at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Ancient Greece

 

We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self control." -- attributed to an inscription in an Ancient Egyptian tomb

 

Or to quote my favorite scy-fy show....

This has all happened before and it will happen again.

[packsaddle]

JBlake - Romanticizing your youth is a sign of getting old.. Your Parents did it, Your Grandparents did it, Your Great-Great Grandparents did it, Your Great-Great-Great Grandparents did it. People who grew up in the time of the Great Depression still could romanticize that time period.

 

I had a conversation with someone at work who was stuck in romanticizing his childhood of the '50's also.. Watch all the old 1950's shows now and think Wow those were the days.. Like that wasn't a plastic made up world of perfection.. Let's forget about the fact child abuse was simply taken care of by turning a blind eye to it, same with wives that were abused. Rape was the womens fault.. Ask an African American if they feel the 1950's was the most perfect time period for them, especially if they lived in the south..

 

Not that I think today is wonderful, just that the 1950's wasn't all that either, nor were the 1930's, nor were the 1900's, nor were the 1880's..

I'm living an a wonderful time compared to what was happening in the 1950s.

[Stosh]

JBlake - Romanticizing your youth is a sign of getting old.. Your Parents did it, Your Grandparents did it, Your Great-Great Grandparents did it, Your Great-Great-Great Grandparents did it. People who grew up in the time of the Great Depression still could romanticize that time period.

 

I had a conversation with someone at work who was stuck in romanticizing his childhood of the '50's also.. Watch all the old 1950's shows now and think Wow those were the days.. Like that wasn't a plastic made up world of perfection.. Let's forget about the fact child abuse was simply taken care of by turning a blind eye to it, same with wives that were abused. Rape was the womens fault.. Ask an African American if they feel the 1950's was the most perfect time period for them, especially if they lived in the south..

 

Not that I think today is wonderful, just that the 1950's wasn't all that either, nor were the 1930's, nor were the 1900's, nor were the 1880's..

Romanticizing my youth wasn't my point. Sorry you missed it.

 

By the way, my father grew up in a rural area and his only positive recollection of those years was the farm could produce a subsistence lifestyle that got them through.

 

Maybe child abuse is no longer "taken care by turning a blind eye", but why hasn't the child abuse issue abated? No, we have just gotten good at pointing out the problem and putting bandaids on it.

 

Rapes haven't been subsiding either, regardless of whose fault it is.

 

So, how far has human nature progressed since the 1880's. One would think with all the insight, knowledge, lessons learned, that there would be a better dent in the problem. Has the poverty problem improved even with both parents working? Nope, life goes on and the only thing that changes is technology and political structures of society. Like I said, make sure your grandkids bone up on their Chinese, the Spanish classes aren't going to cut it in the future. Heck, our country doesn't even know whose its citizenry is and who isn't. Good luck with that. Talk about issues that are dealt with by turning a blind eye.