Is today's scouting too prissy?

[Stosh]

I am currently reading a book I found in the bargain bin of a local store. "HOW TO SURVIVE IN THE WOODS." I find it very interesting that much of the scoutcraft skills I have are all in there, but then, because it is not published by BSA, it goes on to say in many of the topics. "This is illegal in all states, but if you really want to survive this is what you do." He says all birds in North America are edible. I'm assuming that includes the spotted owl. Scouting should be for the practicalist, not the current politically correct. I love his suggestion for stealing a bear's recent kill. Make sure you have sufficient firewood for 24 hours to insure he/she doesn't come back to discuss it further.

[King Ding Dong]

Did I ever tell you about the 19 year old Eagle scout that couldn't tie a square knot at IOLS when I was on staff?????? His dad was his SM imagine that

Check out my post over in advancement on accepting a partial from camp. Cooking MB counselor who thought he needed a big kitchen can opener and couldn't get a fire started. The kid was trying to go from tinder and some twigs straight to damp logs.

 

The problem I saw with fires last week was these boys focus on getting the tinder going and THEN go scrounge for kindling and THEN go looking for fuel. They are also so used to fire building competitions to burn the twine stretched between two sticks that they try to rush everything.

[Sentinel947]

Did I ever tell you about the 19 year old Eagle scout that couldn't tie a square knot at IOLS when I was on staff?????? His dad was his SM imagine that

I think alot of the skills weakness comes from the adult leaders to be honest. If the adults never use the skill, say firebuilding, and instead always use lighter fluid to start fires (theres a problem as well, adults starting fires) then the Scouts never get the opportunity to make a fire, with matches and wood. Many of the Scouting skills like knots and firebuilding require practice and repracticing to keep them fresh. I think many troops struggle with that.

[Stosh]

Did I ever tell you about the 19 year old Eagle scout that couldn't tie a square knot at IOLS when I was on staff?????? His dad was his SM imagine that

Yeah, but if the boys ever have twine on the menu, they'll have it made!

[King Ding Dong]

Don't know about "prissy". But it has morphed into something that placates the helicopter parents, the lawyers, and those boys who would rather sit in front of a video game than rappel down a tower. LIke any other organism, it has adapted to the environment in which it finds itself, rather than go extinct.

Not every BSA camp has a cliff. In fact they only cliffs around here are on the the Interstate or end in water.

[Horizon]

Per usual, it depends on the unit -and units change. There is certainly a lot more paperwork, fear, concern, control, "we won't sue you" documents to be signed, etc.

 

Lets also not forget the change in attitudes on environmental issues. I was taught to dig fire pits, chop wood, etc. That is not allowed in national forests. Heck, here in Southern California we can't even have fires in rings for half of the year or more

 

But some units still do the fun stuff. We grab our packs and head into the Sierras. I took our Venture Crew to the backcountry of Yosemite for 7 days. We have an annual "make your own shelter" campout to practice the knots, and we often do mountain biking in the local mountain trails (and use up a lot of bactine and bandages doing so). We go shooting with shotguns and rifles as well.

 

With all of the rules and regulations, the easier path is to be prissy. GreenBarBill knows I have fallen into that trap a couple of times myself. But then I remember that the fun times are often those where we followed the spirit of Scouting, not the Tour Permit.

 

I knew I was doing my job when an Eagle in his speech at his COH said, "I just know that if the Jeep is flying down the hill out of control - I want my patrol with me, and we won't be able to keep Mr. Horizon from joining us - and he will probably insist on getting a turn at the wheel."

[Basementdweller]

Don't know about "prissy". But it has morphed into something that placates the helicopter parents, the lawyers, and those boys who would rather sit in front of a video game than rappel down a tower. LIke any other organism, it has adapted to the environment in which it finds itself, rather than go extinct.

Isn't the point to go find a cliff to rappel down....Hike/backpack into it.......Spend the day rappeling.....hike out or spend the night.....A thing called adventure

 

I appreciate the rappeling tower is easier and that most camps don't have cliffs. While a tower is great for webelos to go up look over the edge, cry, whimper and then climb the stairs back down...Not much adventure to it......

 

Several of my scouts are in the process of becoming rappel masters.

[Stosh]

There still are places where one can "get away with it." Since my reprieve from Scouting, my wife and I get to do all those things that we can't do with scouts. It's a heck of a lot more fun. One doesn't have to worry about fire pits when the sandbar camp, it costs nothing and no one else in the area. My wife is a former forester for the US Forestry Service and I asked her once, what would happen if we're out there and a serious situation occurs that endangers us. She looked me square in the eyes and said, "When then, we're going to die doing what we enjoy." End of discussion.

 

While I won't endanger someone else's child, the prissy part of BSA surely has restricted the options out there for adventure. I guess I'm a firm believer that with all the PC, legal and BSA policies out there, there really isn't any real adventures out there for the boys. Of course if someone were to bend the rules a bit, maybe the boys could get a glimpse of what a real adventure was all about.

 

It kind of reminds me of last summer's trip to Yellowstone. We were in a public campground, but when we woke up in the morning we couldn't get to the car to make breakfast. A buffalo decided to check out the campsite. It was the same trip where a group of people had gathered to look at a yearling black bear and when my wife said, "Your looking in the wrong direction, the bear is over there." I answered, "Yeah, but the grizzly over to the left is a lot more interesting to watch." Once I said that, the crowd looked over to the left and within 15 seconds were were the only ones standing there looking at the bears. Prissy tourists!

[Kudu]

Prissy by design since 1965, the year that William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt retired, leaving the BSA's top office managers in control of the program.

They switched Scouting's icon from outdoorsmen to themselves.

 

 

[King Ding Dong]

Don't know about "prissy". But it has morphed into something that placates the helicopter parents, the lawyers, and those boys who would rather sit in front of a video game than rappel down a tower. LIke any other organism, it has adapted to the environment in which it finds itself, rather than go extinct.

I wisely let my son go to open climb by himself. He came back to camp yelling "I did it! I did it!" He admitted he was crying and they would not let him go down the stairs and he was the last one down. Apparently it took some pulling from below as well.

 

Glad I wasn't there for him to appeal to.

 

BD, sometimes just throwing a non-swimmer in a dive tank and making him struggle is not the best approach.

[TSS_Chris]

Look, in this day and age, you can't be the mythical "Man's Man" anymore who shoots from the hip, and wrestles bears for fun. Let's just think about the post trip briefing:

 

SM Wayne: "Well pardners, we're back. We completed another trip with acceptable losses."

Concerned Mother: "Jimmy? Jimmy? Where's my Jimmy?"

SM Wayne: "Sorry ma'am." Removes Stetson and holds over heart, "Jimmy was one of the acceptable losses."

 

I'm an Engineer and programmer by day, and a confessed proceduralist. I shoot for JTE gold annually. If ISO-9001 or six-sigma certification was available for Scout units, I'd have that too. There is a reason successful businesses, the military, pilots, and doctors all use standard procedures: Acceptable losses these days are 0. By making the mundane automatic, you can focus on the exceptional situations.

 

(I do take offense to comparing my type to The Donald. He's a bigger cowboy than John Wayne ever was. Let's call us the Edison type.)

 

I see my checklists, spreadsheets and briefing documents justified by those two simple words: "Be Prepared." I don't see that as prissy at all.

 

As for the prissy part, there does seem to be a problem with prissiness in Scout units these days. I'm a CM right now, and I have that problem with my CO's Troop. Our pack camps more often than they do, and has more autonomous boy leadership than they do. I know that I can spend my time on a trip distracting the helicopter parents while they boys be boys. I have the confidence to bring up the rear on hikes, because the boys in the lead know to bring the whole group to a stop when there is a question about which fork in the trail to take -- and my like-minded DLs (two engineers and an accountant) aren't far behind them to jog their memories if needed.

 

As a youth, I had a John Wayne-type SM. He was memorable, but a control freak. When he retired, it took a few years to rebuild a truly autonomous PLC and committee again. It would have been really easy for the unit to turn prissy in the vacuum after his personality left. I'm glad it didn't.

 

BasementDweller is right. It's the adults who make the program prissy. You want an un-prissy program: Give the PLC a JTE scorecard and a blank calendar and tell them to earn the Troop a gold ranking. Tell them the leaders are there to help them, but this is their Troop and their job. You and the rest of the leadership have to be willing to let them make mistakes that get them into trouble, while secretly having that 24-hour store of firewood in your back pocket for when they need to steal the bear's kill (or maybe a backpack full of Power Bars and a water filter instead).

 

In the end, they may not remember you as much as they would if you were John Wayne, but they'll learn more, be less prissy and better prepared.

 

[Stosh]

Look, in this day and age, you can't be the mythical "Man's Man" anymore who shoots from the hip, and wrestles bears for fun. Let's just think about the post trip briefing:

 

SM Wayne: "Well pardners, we're back. We completed another trip with acceptable losses."

Concerned Mother: "Jimmy? Jimmy? Where's my Jimmy?"

SM Wayne: "Sorry ma'am." Removes Stetson and holds over heart, "Jimmy was one of the acceptable losses."

 

I'm an Engineer and programmer by day, and a confessed proceduralist. I shoot for JTE gold annually. If ISO-9001 or six-sigma certification was available for Scout units, I'd have that too. There is a reason successful businesses, the military, pilots, and doctors all use standard procedures: Acceptable losses these days are 0. By making the mundane automatic, you can focus on the exceptional situations.

 

(I do take offense to comparing my type to The Donald. He's a bigger cowboy than John Wayne ever was. Let's call us the Edison type.)

 

I see my checklists, spreadsheets and briefing documents justified by those two simple words: "Be Prepared." I don't see that as prissy at all.

 

As for the prissy part, there does seem to be a problem with prissiness in Scout units these days. I'm a CM right now, and I have that problem with my CO's Troop. Our pack camps more often than they do, and has more autonomous boy leadership than they do. I know that I can spend my time on a trip distracting the helicopter parents while they boys be boys. I have the confidence to bring up the rear on hikes, because the boys in the lead know to bring the whole group to a stop when there is a question about which fork in the trail to take -- and my like-minded DLs (two engineers and an accountant) aren't far behind them to jog their memories if needed.

 

As a youth, I had a John Wayne-type SM. He was memorable, but a control freak. When he retired, it took a few years to rebuild a truly autonomous PLC and committee again. It would have been really easy for the unit to turn prissy in the vacuum after his personality left. I'm glad it didn't.

 

BasementDweller is right. It's the adults who make the program prissy. You want an un-prissy program: Give the PLC a JTE scorecard and a blank calendar and tell them to earn the Troop a gold ranking. Tell them the leaders are there to help them, but this is their Troop and their job. You and the rest of the leadership have to be willing to let them make mistakes that get them into trouble, while secretly having that 24-hour store of firewood in your back pocket for when they need to steal the bear's kill (or maybe a backpack full of Power Bars and a water filter instead).

 

In the end, they may not remember you as much as they would if you were John Wayne, but they'll learn more, be less prissy and better prepared.

Basically there is nothing wrong with the business theory you are proposing. I would contend that every boy must master T-FC before they can functionally operate in the field, so to speak. However, when it comes to advancement through the training of this standard word, it is basically demonstration and pencil whipping. No the boys are not prepared. They are more interested in getting the certification rather than actually learning the job. You know these people. They have the 6-sigma certificate posted proudly in their cubicle and have shown proficiency in doing one project for class. Since class they have done nothing to put it into their everyday operation of standard work improvement.

 

One can expound theory to the boys until one is blue in the face, but until they take what they learned, (all of it) into the field, they will never be prepared for what may lie ahead. Do they think on their feet and actually apply first aid when needed, or do they go running off to the SM to let him know that Jimmy got hurt and he's needed to clean up the mess. They know how to apply LOA, so there's no need for really knowing it oneself.

 

A spreadsheet checklist is fantastic as long as the ADHD boy picks up and tosses in all the duffles, backpacks and tote bins into the back of the trailer for an overnight campout. But if he misses one. He's a hopeless cause. He can't think on his feet, it wasn't part of his standard work and it wasn't one of the T-FC requirements.

 

The boys are lost in the mountains. One boy says, no problem, I have a compass. Do you know how to use it? No, but it was part of my checklist of things to bring. Gonna follow him? The second boy says I have a map. Do you know where on the map we are? No, I was told we needed a map so I brought one. Gonna follow him? The third boy says, we're going to sit here until help comes and finds us. We're supposed to have 4 more days on this trip, no one's going to come looking for us until then. Gonna wait until the water's gone? The fourth boy says, we have been walking uphill for three days, we're lost, I'm going to walk downhill for three days and see where it leads to, after all most people live in the valleys than they do on the mountain tops. Gonna follow him? Yep, he's got a good idea/plan that makes sense and he's not relying on his tools, he's thinking on his feet and formulating a plan. It's called leadership. Management relies on tools and knowledge of those tools to "manage" the situation. It neither expects or requires anyone to follow. A leader will inspire in spite of the situation and others will follow because they trust he is going to do his best to make it better for those who follow. How do you put that into standard work or find a line on a checklist for that?

[NJCubScouter]

While we're putting labels on people, my question is: What label should we put on people who insist on putting a label on everybody else?

 

 

 

In the past we have had this issue with ideological labels like conservative, liberal, progressive etc. (this was a particular pet peeve of our departed friend OGE), but I guess there is no end to the kinds of labels, categories, overgeneralizations, etc. that people can think up for each other. Some descriptive terms can be helpful, though I find this is most often true when it is label applied by someone to themselves. In other words if someone says "I am a ____________" I usually tend to believe him/her unless there is evidence to the contrary. But "That guy over there is a __________" is not so useful most of the time.

[MattR]

I don't know if it's about prissy vs manly so much as adventure. And there are lots of ways to have an adventure. (I would be in on the bucket of snakes)

 

I like the phrase "here there be dragons" supposedly written on the edge of maps indicating the unknown. Combine that with Be Prepared and that, to me, is how a calendar should be figured out. But it's hard to find scouts that will go for it. Adventure is about challenging yourself, and that implies a possibility of failure. I don't know, maybe a lot of kids don't know how to fail gracefully, so they stay away from any challenge. Seems to me society doesn't like young winners and losers (although winning is everything for adults, but that's another thread).

 

We just did a biking based high adventure trip and everyone was challenged and the range of abilities was all over the map. We had different ability groups so everyone got pushed, everyone struggled, and we had a ton of fun. If I could do that troop wide, it would be great.

 

Maybe we need to emphasize to scouts how to fail gracefully and also win gracefully by helping those that are struggling.

 

[Eagledad]

Personally I don't think its about outdoors or adventure, my scouts do and did a lot more high adventure stuff than I did as a scout. But I definitely think that scouting is more prissy. I think it's there is less freedom for boys to express themselves as boys. Adults are A LOT more guarded today about what boys can say, do or even meet. We put limits on knives and other woods tools. It was no big deal for my patrol to go on a five mile with a map and compass, but adults today would struggle to let a patrol hike through the safe parts of our town without some kind of oversite. How many boys can ride their bike accross town without getting permission? Our culture has closed in on our youths freedom of expression and freedom to move about. The culture is more prissy, and we don't have very many adults who remember how it used to be. Barry