SPL issues

[Stosh]

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

I would think that "troop method" is dependent on one's definition of what that means.

1) the SPL runs the troop and the PL's fall into line on what the "higher ups" decide. That means all the patrols go to the same summer camp if that's what the SPL and the PLC decide.

2) each patrol is autonomous from the rest and it is run by the PL who is SUPPORTED in those efforts by the SPL. This means that the NSP's all go to summer camp, but the older boy patrols go on HA and whatever activity they feel is more important than "yet another wasted year at the council's summer camp."

 

If one has 3 patrols, two NSP's and an older boy patrol, then the NSP's always outvote the older boys who will eventually quit out of boredom. If mixed patrols, only the older boys who have "been there, done that" will quit leaving patrol remnants to pick up the pieces and/or merge.

 

Assume for a moment patrol #1 (NSP) wants to go to camp for the first time; patrol #2 (2nd/3rd year scouts) want to try out a new camp across the state, and patrol #3 wants to do high adventure (BWCA, Philmont, or whatever). Is the SPL prepared to assist each patrol accomplish their goals or out of a sense of troop expediency boil it down to all three patrols getting one choice? To me that is what the troop-method is all about. Or does the SPL go to the SM and ASM's and say, we're going to need 6 adults for this summer's program because each patrol wants to do something different. That's what the patrol-method means to me.

 

From what I hear from the boys, maybe the "troop-method" is not taught, but neither is the "patrol-method."

[Kudu]

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

In Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method, the PATROL Leaders elect the SPL.

 

 

In Leadership Development's Troop Method, the TROOP elects the SPL.

 

 

In the Real Patrol Method, the PATROL Leaders always outnumber the SPL in the PATROL Leader's Council.

 

 

In the Troop Method the TROOP SPL's patronage positions, such as the TROOP ASPLs and the TROOP Guides, can vote against the Patrol Leaders.

 

 

Maybe the word "Troop" has been Program Neutered out of NYLT, like the Patrol Leaders were neutered out of the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster-specific training?

[King Ding Dong]

It is more my growing frustration with the lad.......The return on my time spent with him, is next to zero...I just don't see any growth or interest in the position.

 

His failure to consistently provide leadership in the troop.....Unless I call him to make sure he has a program scheduled he won't do it.

Sure once they are 18 they make all their own choices but there are no scouts 18. Up that point some decisions have to made for them, albeit as little as possible.

 

No one can control their success in life but we can sure as hell make sure the deck is stacked against them by following The Lord of the Flies style of parenting and not setting expectations and consequences. The problem with many Natural consequences is they child will not experience them until latter in life.

 

BTW SEVEN CHILDREN!!! Better man than me. There are days I feel like checking myself into the psych ward with just two.

[Stosh]

It is more my growing frustration with the lad.......The return on my time spent with him, is next to zero...I just don't see any growth or interest in the position.

 

His failure to consistently provide leadership in the troop.....Unless I call him to make sure he has a program scheduled he won't do it.

I'm in no way promoting Lord of the Flies approach to the program. There requires a ton of mentoring, suggesting, assisting, and training in making sure the boys have a chance to be successful, but be successful on their own terms, not mine, not the SM's, not the SPL, and not the parents.

 

While I spend very little, if any, time directing youth, I do spend 99.9% of my time offering suggestions for them, kinda guiding them along, and also setting a good example. I am a debt-free freak in my personal life. My youngest son just graduated Carnegie-Mellon College and has no student loans. He's starting this summer at his first job, $80,000+/yr. and no debt. Some people listen to the wisdom of their elders, others don't. One doesn't have much control over the choices they make, but one can lay down a good foundation for them and then hope for the best.

[RememberSchiff]

It is more my growing frustration with the lad.......The return on my time spent with him, is next to zero...I just don't see any growth or interest in the position.

 

His failure to consistently provide leadership in the troop.....Unless I call him to make sure he has a program scheduled he won't do it.

Gradauted CMU, new job, no debt - OUTSTANDING. Congrats.

[MattR]

Anyone else feel the usability of the new Scouter.com forum is synonymous to the BSA's present situation. A response requires a great deal of planning, persistence and patience. My response to King Dingdong will be brief, wish me luck. Your highness, if you can't keep older scouts in your program, you are doing it wrong. Barry

Barry, try editing your message in another window, then login to the forum, then just copy and paste. it works well for me.

[MattR]

We got passion

 

I like Kudu's 300' ideas. I had to get us off the 300 pounds of gear before we could do it, but it's just a way to say patrol based activities and not troop based activities. My troop is finally getting there and my scouts like it. My goal is to have the PLs strong enough that any one could be SPL, and maybe we could just get rid of the SPL and the PLs could just take turns. I think that's what Kudu is talking about.

 

I also appreciate what BD is going through. I had a scout that everyone was sure would never, ever, be responsible for anything, much less a leader. All of a sudden last year he found out he was really good at tying knots (we had a blind folded knot tying contest). In February he became a troop guide and all his new scouts really like him. He's now a patrol leader. He cares about his patrol. He doesn't want to manage it, he wants to lead it. So the idea of building up a leader is a reasonable idea to me.

 

Kudu says patrol elections are a popularity contest. Not in my troop. Maybe I'm just lucky but over the past two cycles, only the best scouts have been voted in. Granted, we do things differently than most troops, but the scouts know who's good and who isn't.

 

One thing I'd like to add is that changing a troop from, say, troop method to patrol method, or adult led to scout led, takes a lot of effort. Changing culture in a troop is not easy. What a younger scout sees is what he'll do when he gets older and starts leading or being a role model. If a young scout sees an older scout lead then he'll learn from that and try and emulate it when it's his turn, at least in the beginning. That's what I did when I became SM. For a situation like what BD has, where there is no prior leadership to learn from the scout has nothing to emulate, and flailing would be expected. We can use words all we want to try and explain how to do it but words are only so good when it comes to leadership. And that's why I also agree with Kudu's dim view on classroom leadership training. What I'm finding is that being a troop guide and/or working at summer camp helps a scout gain confidence in working with other people, and is a much better way to learn leadership than something like NYLT. It's not that NYLT isn't useful, but it it not sufficient and only somewhat necessary.

[Eagledad]

Anyone else feel the usability of the new Scouter.com forum is synonymous to the BSA's present situation. A response requires a great deal of planning, persistence and patience. My response to King Dingdong will be brief, wish me luck. Your highness, if you can't keep older scouts in your program, you are doing it wrong. Barry

Thanks MattR, I was doing that until about a week ago. Now it kicks me out of the editor when I paste.

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

We got passion

 

I like Kudu's 300' ideas. I had to get us off the 300 pounds of gear before we could do it, but it's just a way to say patrol based activities and not troop based activities. My troop is finally getting there and my scouts like it. My goal is to have the PLs strong enough that any one could be SPL, and maybe we could just get rid of the SPL and the PLs could just take turns. I think that's what Kudu is talking about.

 

I also appreciate what BD is going through. I had a scout that everyone was sure would never, ever, be responsible for anything, much less a leader. All of a sudden last year he found out he was really good at tying knots (we had a blind folded knot tying contest). In February he became a troop guide and all his new scouts really like him. He's now a patrol leader. He cares about his patrol. He doesn't want to manage it, he wants to lead it. So the idea of building up a leader is a reasonable idea to me.

 

Kudu says patrol elections are a popularity contest. Not in my troop. Maybe I'm just lucky but over the past two cycles, only the best scouts have been voted in. Granted, we do things differently than most troops, but the scouts know who's good and who isn't.

 

One thing I'd like to add is that changing a troop from, say, troop method to patrol method, or adult led to scout led, takes a lot of effort. Changing culture in a troop is not easy. What a younger scout sees is what he'll do when he gets older and starts leading or being a role model. If a young scout sees an older scout lead then he'll learn from that and try and emulate it when it's his turn, at least in the beginning. That's what I did when I became SM. For a situation like what BD has, where there is no prior leadership to learn from the scout has nothing to emulate, and flailing would be expected. We can use words all we want to try and explain how to do it but words are only so good when it comes to leadership. And that's why I also agree with Kudu's dim view on classroom leadership training. What I'm finding is that being a troop guide and/or working at summer camp helps a scout gain confidence in working with other people, and is a much better way to learn leadership than something like NYLT. It's not that NYLT isn't useful, but it it not sufficient and only somewhat necessary.

Yes, only the best scouts were elected in our troop as well. But our guys work so hard that only the ambitous scouts want the position. The SPL position is kind of SM in training for me, I work with them in the skills of coaching, mentoring, delegating and patience. It's worked well because they like to go back and teach those skills to the Patrol Leaders. Interestingly the SPL's typically want a break after six months because they work so hard. And they typically volunteer for Troop Guides and are very good at it. I don't know if one started that tradition or what, but they want teach, coach, and mentor and the new guys seem perfect for them. But six months later they want the SPL responsibility back because they miss the intensitiy of it. Our style seems to naturally raise the cream to the top. I can't take responsibilty, I didn't plan it that way. But it sure is rewarding to watch.

 

Barry

[Twocubdad]

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

And here I thought part of the beauty of the program is its flexibility to adapt to the needs, interests and abilities of the local boys, families and leaders.

 

Love how you guys find pejorative ways of describing the OTHER guy's program. You should apply for writing jobs at Fox News or MSNBC (it doesn't matter which).

[MattR]

Anyone else feel the usability of the new Scouter.com forum is synonymous to the BSA's present situation. A response requires a great deal of planning, persistence and patience. My response to King Dingdong will be brief, wish me luck. Your highness, if you can't keep older scouts in your program, you are doing it wrong. Barry

Well, try waiting another week

[jr56]

I feel you did a good job with him. Hope things get better.

 

[Scouter99]

I guess that is the issue....

 

Is he completely lost and comes a crossed uninterested.....Or doesn't he care?????? that is the million dollar question.

 

Well tonight I sat down with the spl duties out of the book and asked him if he honestly did the duties one at a time......HIs answer was no to most.......I suggested we wait on the smc and bor till those answers were yes's.

 

If that worked, then run with it, but I agreed with your initial conclusion that you haven't got any good option except to give it to him. The Guide to Advancement is clear that to deny him credit, you must have sat him down months ago, told him the problems, and given him a clear path to success. (This isn't an endorsement of the policy, it's simply how it is.)

You say you're 4 months in; If you do a 6-month term, and if I were you, your meeting of 6/18 is your "intervention" and the next 2 months are his chance to make good or else not get credit come August.

[qwazse]

Let me see..... His contribution to the troop meeting is British Bull Dog. ...

 

Then he contributed! (Can you guess my favorite scouting game?)

 

[qwazse]

Okay, maybe I'm biased. But, at a certain point you have to prepare a kid to count positives. Sure, he did precious little, but always bring him to what he DID accomplish. Who knows? That one troop tradition might outlast all of that management training we cherish so highly.

 

Here's hoping at least one more "yes" is on the checklist in the next few weeks.