Ethics of ISA accounts

boomerscout · July 4, 2013

I can't get this page to scroll and lock-on, so am starting a new reply. There is a big diff between cash and credits: actual cash comes out of the Scout's wallet, while credits are a paper entry in the overall troop account -- the Scout never actually sees this as money, but just sees a bookkeeping entry. An example: 3 weeks of summer camp is going to cost $300. The Scout is told it is going to cost 300 credits.He has 200 credits in his ISA, so has to come up with $100 in cash.

King Dong: bake sales are exempt because everyone is supposed to understand the baked goods are baked in homes by amateurs, and you take your chances

So, if we stop valuing ISA in dollars, and switch to credits, even though there is a one to one correspondence, and everyone understands the ISA has to be spent within the troop (camping fees, uniforms, Scout Shop training kits, patches & badges, etc) many of the problems should be resolved

boomerscout · July 4, 2013

legal because camping fee, uniforms, training kits , badges are directly related to the reason and purpose of the organization. Personal camping equipment would not qualify because the equipment can be used many places outside the organization. Push your Scouts to earn all the home repair, gardening, salesmanship & public speaking merit badges. The knowledge thus gained will allow them to take on more odd jobs

Pack18Alex · July 5, 2013

In fact, when you look at the IRS rules for a uniform as deductible, one of the examples given is a Boy Scout Uniform, because it has no purpose outside the organization. I believe you can write off your adult uniform as a donation to charity for that reason, since you have no use for it except as a Boy Scout Leader.

Switching from US Dollars to BS Credits is irrelevant, money is money. While it is easiest to denominate it in US Currency, you can pay someone in US Money, Euros, Canadian Dollars, or Bitcoins, and you've still paid them. You have to convert it to US Dollars for reporting to the IRS. Our ISA's are basically used to cover dues / camping fees / extras... I'd get rid of them, but the only Scouts that have them for us are Leaders Kids (you get them after selling 20 Camp Cards, non of the non leaders sold over 20 Camp Cards), and it's a nice perk since the Leaders get clobbered with various costs from running the activities, going on every Campout, etc.

Even if ISA's are payments (they're not, they are offsets to future charges, but the Scout can't cash out), up to $600/year doesn't require reporting... it's certainly a 1099, there are no work hours, minimum payments, etc. The Scout would still be required to report it on their 1040, but the Scout likely doesn't have a 1040, and that level of income is not exempt.

We pay for all patch/badges out of Unit funds, not ISA. That way the Scouts that do more stuff aren't charged for doing it, they are role models.

boomerscout · July 6, 2013

We need to stop thinking of ISA as an individual Scout's earnings. They are not earnings; the Scout cannot take and invest them, or spend them at will. The money belongs to the troop (OK, the CO). and is used to carry on activities that benefits its members. So why, then, an ISA? As an incentive. Now, if an ISA were strictly made up of fundraising shares, then it would be earnings, and taxable per the IRS. (And even if below the filing minimums, the Scout will still need to make his social security contribution on these earnings.) And, we would probably have to make sure each Scout is getting minimum wage.

A proper ISA also gets "credits" based on participation, leadership, advancement. You may be a rotten salesman, but if your ISA is large enough due to Scouting activities it may pay for camp. That's why I suggested credits in place of money. Putting a dollar value on participation seems too mercenary

If everyone pulled equally, the ISA would not be needed as the troop as a whole would have all the money it needed. If your high achievers in fundraising didn't mind a bit of socialism, then ISA would also not be needed.

fred johnson · July 9, 2013

BOOMERSCOUT... credit versus money ... you're playing a word game that is very Clinton'esque. I doubt the IRS would play along. Just because you really really really want it that way, does not mean it's true. Unless you completely remove money from the equation, credits are equivalent to money. As long as little Johnny can pay cash for camp, then the credits are the same as cash.

Also you never know if Little Johnny has another side job and needs to file a tax return. Plus, Little Johnny might be saving up for a high adventure.

Please note also ... Leader shirts are deductible. Leader camping costs are deductible. You can NOT deduct the price of the scout's shirt or the price of scout's camp. This is all related.

boomerscout · July 11, 2013

Think of an ISA as a do it yourself campership. The more a Scout participates in troop activities -- whether fundraisers, Scout spirit, leadership, etc. the bigger his campership. The actual money remains in, and belongs to the troop. The troop can pay for a Scout's camp fees as one of the benefit to its members. As long as an ISA is not solely valued from fundraiser performance, it will be OK

"We have a 501©(3) youth sports club. Can donations be used to cover the costs of an in-need player (uniform, fees, etc.) or do all donations have to be spread so that all players (regardless of need) benefit equally? We have been told that we cannot have a Ã¢â‚¬Å“scholarship player.Ã¢â‚¬Â

There is certainly no federal tax reason that you canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t use contributions to help cover the costs of players of financial need. ThatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s the whole concept of donations. There might be a league rule about the use of gifts, but it does not seem likely that a league rule would prevent such use of gifts." (website on non-profit law)

"How can I save money on the cost of uniforms and equipment?The unit may provide assistance to families. Some units operate a uniform exchange or uniform bank, or they may hold fund-raisers to enable the boys to earn their uniforms. Also, some units will award boys rank-specific uniform components (hat and neckerchief) and/or the program books that the Scout needs each yearÃ¢â‚¬â€so parents should inquire as to what the unit provides before purchasing the items themselves." (BSA's own website)

qwazse · July 11, 2013

I agree with Fred. Credits=Currency. ISA's are real money that a boy uses for things that he thinks are real important.

The only "correct" way to view ISA's, IMHO, is by applying youth led principles and teaching your boys this working definition: ISA's are troop monies put under the stewardship of the scout for the betterment of his troop or patrol.

Examples ...

1. If a scout uses his ISA to buy a uniform, that uniform is the troop's. When it gets too big, it gets handed down to another scout. Boys inspect each others' uniforms because you never know who will be wearing it next!

2. If a scout uses his ISA to buy gear, it is because the troop needs a boy who is prepared. Any northerner who has had to deal with boys at winter camp outs with only one pair of sneakers knows what I'm talking about. Gear bought with an ISA -- if it hasn't been worn out after dozens of troop outings -- should be handed down to another scout.

3. If a scout pays for camp fees through his ISA, he is doing a service to the troop. Anyone who disagrees with me just needs to come to camp on a year that more than 5 boys can't make it! If you don't allow "ad hoc" patrols, then your boys really know what it's like to do without another youth! The troop/patrol gains more from any given boy being in camp than the boy ever gains from being with the troop.

4. If the boy uses his ISA for jambo, or as a provisional scout on a high adventure, he is doing a service to the troop. That boy will be representing your unit in a far corner of the globe. In the process of training for the trip, he may organize a super activity for your unit. On his return he will give reports that inspire your first-years with big ideas for the future.

Thus ISA's aren't mere personal bank accounts for easy accounting of popcorn incentives. They are a tool that your most involved boys can use to shape their unit in ways they see fit.

Brewmeister · July 11, 2013

Around here, we have some scouts that split and sell firewood. Others that plant sweet corn and have a stand. Another that raises and sells nightcrawlers. My daughter who is a Venturer prefers babysitting. Lots of things the thrifty scout can do that don't involve shoveling coal or working in the salt mines.

fred johnson · July 11, 2013

BOOMERSCOUT - It gets ugly quick.

"Most" of what you described is probably okay, but defends different specific situation than originally discussed. Fine. Nonprofits can use funds as they decide to benefit their target audience. Buying clothes for specific homeless people is a classic example. You do not need to spread funds evenly. You can have scholarships. Fine. Nonprofits can allocate funds to serve their purpose. It's the whole idea.

And you are right ... it's key that ISA "credits" not be based solely on fundraiser performance.

But it's a very dangerous game. The issue is when private benefit creeps in.

EXAMPLE - A troop crosses that boundary with a policy of pay $100 annual dues or sell $250 in popcorn or work 10 hours selling popcorn. There the profit from the $250 in popcorn sales earned by the non-profit is being targetted directly to one individual in exchange for having earned sold that popcorn. Same with working 10 hours. The scout is avoiding paying his $100 annual dues. It's using non-profit status to benefit a private individual.

We've done scout scholarships because of need, but I don't want our troop having a committee deciding who gets how much. Especially as it's mostly the parents of the kids in the troop.

I also don't want a shopping list of how to earn credits or a treasurer having to keep track of it.

.... $ 2 ISA credit(s) = 1 hour working on volunteer servic project

.... $ 10 ISA credit(s) = 1 month as PL

.... $ 15 ISA credit(s) = 1 month as ASPL or QM

.... $ 20 ISA credit(s) = 1 month as SPL

.... $ 1 ISA credit(s) = Attend one meeting

.... $ 20 ISA credit(s) = Attend a weekend camp out

.... $100 ISA credit(s) = Attend a week long summer camp

It would be different if the troop said we have $1000 allocated to reduce scout costs. Let's allocate the money back out based on various criteria. It would also be different if the money is a small amount of the total raised.

It's just not a simple topic and very case by case specific.

=======================================

QWAZSE ... you walk a fine line still.

.... #1 & #2 ... you have the person who raised the money choosing how to use it and being the first to benefit and often the only to benefit because of wear and tear. Plus, if I donate my sons shirt after four years, I don't get to write off the full price of a new shirt. You get the garage sale price / value. Anything else is fraud.

.... #3 & #4 ... beyond questionable. Especially as any camp attendee can claim they are doing service or representing their troop. To do this, IRS would need to treat all youth scouting costs as tax deductible. But, they aren't. Youth may be doing service / representing their units, but they are 1st and foremost "enjoying the activity."

=======================================

Everyone wants to define their own view point. That's not how it works. The IRS and the courts require you to use their terms and their interpretations. Guess who wins. It's moot though as most scouting $$$ are just too small to get attention.

But just because we are too small to get corrected does not make you right.

And I do fear it as our troop has $25,000 easily going thru the checking account each year. Most of it passes thru with popcorn, wreath and camping costs. But it does pass thru.

qwazse · July 11, 2013

".... #1 & #2 ... you have the person who raised the money choosing how to use it and being the first to benefit and often the only to benefit because of wear and tear. "

No, my troop benefits first because if the boy is prepared, we don't have to interrupt program to fish around for an old uniform or treat for hypothermia or buy the kid boots (if there were no spares in the troop store from previous stewardly purchases via ISA's).

"Plus, if I donate my son's shirt after four years, I don't get to write off the full price of a new shirt. You get the garage sale price / value. Anything else is fraud. "

- Nobody's making you use your son's ISA to by that uniform. If the boy uses his ISA, it's the troop's uniform, not his. So when he hands it down, it's not a donation, it's mere stewardship of troop resources.

- You're certainly welcome to abstain from the troop's coffers and roll the dice on some organization wanting that ratty shirt after four years so you gain a write-off. Hope your boy respects his uni enough to make it worth your while.

In fact, we don't make a boy use his ISA for anything at all. He can opt for it all to go back to the troop's coffers.

Importantly, note the lack of boy-led in the statement "if I donate my son's shirt after four years, I don't get to". Isn't it your boy who would be applying for the write-off? Because really, if we compensated him for popcorn sales in the true sense, wouldn't the 1099 be in his name?

fred johnson · July 11, 2013

I think you've driven a bit too much thru the southwest listening to all those independent radio channels run by tax protesters that argue the federal income tax is illegal and FDR did not pass the constitutional amendment properly.

Your reasoning is the same that football parents would use to deduct the cost of their son's football uniform and summer camp costs.

You want to reach a conclusion that is a bit more aggressive than I could sign up to following.

packsaddle · July 11, 2013

Na, ah, ahhhhh! Don't give all the credit to the Southwest! There are plenty of kooks in the Southeast and I've heard some of the worst, for that matter, in Wisconsin, eastern Washington and up in Idaho. They're everywhere, they're everywhere!

boomerscout · July 12, 2013

a Scout can't use his ISA to buy general camping gear as it would have a use outside the Scout program.

from IRS:

The private benefit prohibition is broad and includes the individual Scouts and their

parents. The amount of private benefit that will be permitted depends on the magnitude

of that benefit in relation to the public benefit derived from the organization's activities

and whether that private benefit is necessary for the organization to achieve its exempt

purposes. In considering whether a private benefit, such as earmarked accounts for the

personal benefit of individual Scouts, is substantial enough to jeopardize your

exemption, one must examine all of the facts and circumstances. In relation to the

public benefit inherent in the Scouting program, this may be a small private benefit.

Whether the private benefit to the individual Scouts is necessary to achieve the goals of

the Scouting program, however, is not clear.

We discussed a similar question in regard to athletic booster clubs that earmarked a

portion of their fundraising proceeds to be shared only by the members who participated

in the fundraiser in the 1993 CPE text (a copy is attached for your convenience). In the

hypothetical addressed in the Article (Example one on page 5), we determined that the

resulting private benefit to the individual members was substantial and negated the

Code.

You have asked whether issuing a Form 1099 for each Scout receiving such benefits

would negate the private benefit question. In this case, you would treat all income the

Scout receives through the earmarked account as compensation for tax purposes. An

exempt organization can, of course, pay reasonable compensation for services.

Treating the receipts as income to the individual, however, may raise additional issues

for the Pack. In particular, the fundraising activity may, if conducted by paid labor rather

than volunteers, be characterized as unrelated business income taxable under section

3

511 of the Code. You may wish, therefore, to consider whether creating a possible tax

liability for both the individual Scouts and the Pack is appropriate under the

circumstances.

This letter is advisory only and has no binding effect on the Internal Revenue Service.

The information provided here cannot be relied upon as a ruling on the matters

discussed. "

So, ISA can be no larger than just large enough for that year's camping and program fees including uniforms, handbooks, BSA kits, ISA can't be used for general purpose campingequipment.the ISA account is not transferable to other troops. Most of all money raised must always go to the troop's general fund. Troop needs to do plenty of community service, conservation projects, and advancement training -- both for rank and for character development.

qwazse · July 12, 2013

And camping and hiking? Don't forget that we do that for the purposes of character development as well.

If a boy is not prepared to hike with us, we cannot provide the public benefit of well trained youth on our nation's trails, inspired conservation projects, and a knowledgable citizenry when it comes to issues of environment.

P.S. - For the record, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I hate ISAs. don't have them in my crew, and wish my troop didn't have them. My son and I would be just fine rolling the dimes credited to him into shaving costs for everyone.

boomerscout · July 12, 2013

just a reminder that BSA National forbids ISA. Our troop does not have ISA. We feel that we could as our CO is a church that retains many freedoms all Americans once had. Much hiking equipment can be home-made or received as Christmas & birthday gifts. The Scout could also save part of his allowance if he gets one. Parents cannot use their kid's ISA

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