Ethics of ISA accounts

[King Ding Dong]

My apologies, the complete quote is:

 

Private Benefit Considerations

 

Councils should make sure that any sales materials, instructions, and support information do not make reference to individual scouts earning money for their own participation in Scouting activities.

 

When the council is remitting proceeds, from any sale, back to units, provide guidance on distribution of funds. Encourage units to develop fund distribution plans that include other criteria than sale of items.

 

These might include:

1. Participation in the camp card sale

2. Participation in the program

3. Leadership

4. Scout Spirit

5. Advancement

 

A portion of the proceeds from any sale or activity should be set aside for general unit expenses and could include funds used for assistance to members with financial need.

This is all so very vague. It seems to just say sales $ cannot be the sole criteria, but a unit could make it 95% of the criteria and include 5% other criteria. That may address the legal issue, but not necessarily the ethical one.

[Eagle92]

This is the reason that the Girl Scouts not only disallow ISAs, but have also eliminated the gift card incentives from their sales.

 

Every ISA program that I know of involves the scout going out and selling something on behalf of the BOY SCOUTS. "I'm Johnnie from so-and-so troop and would you like to buy some widgets?" The implication is that the funds support the troop or the program, not the boy's individual account.

 

If a boy wants to raise money for camp, there is a very simple solution: go get a job. That's the only way it is truly on the up-and-up. I predict that sooner or later there will be a change to the ISA convention in Boy Scouts, given the number of people with axes to grind against the organization, not to mention the current stance of the IRS against conservative organizations......

Unfortunately, not every Scout is old enough to have a job. Once I was old enough to get one. Generally your 11-14, possibly 15 year olds can't get jobs. Heck even the newspapers nowadays are delivered by adults.

 

And let's not forget with the way the economy is going, a lot of jobs that would be for teenagers are going to unemployed adults.

[Brewmeister]

This is the reason that the Girl Scouts not only disallow ISAs, but have also eliminated the gift card incentives from their sales.

 

Every ISA program that I know of involves the scout going out and selling something on behalf of the BOY SCOUTS. "I'm Johnnie from so-and-so troop and would you like to buy some widgets?" The implication is that the funds support the troop or the program, not the boy's individual account.

 

If a boy wants to raise money for camp, there is a very simple solution: go get a job. That's the only way it is truly on the up-and-up. I predict that sooner or later there will be a change to the ISA convention in Boy Scouts, given the number of people with axes to grind against the organization, not to mention the current stance of the IRS against conservative organizations......

Yeah but we have 7 year old Tiger cubs working as salesmen for Popcorn National, we just call it fundraising. Agricultural work is age 12 with permission I believe. The age for for washing the neighbor's car or mowing the lawn...? Lots of troops also do other year-round sales...candy bars, etc. So sell the bars with the message "My name is Johnny and I am selling these for ME so that I may go to camp next summer."

[rdclements]

This is the reason that the Girl Scouts not only disallow ISAs, but have also eliminated the gift card incentives from their sales.

 

Every ISA program that I know of involves the scout going out and selling something on behalf of the BOY SCOUTS. "I'm Johnnie from so-and-so troop and would you like to buy some widgets?" The implication is that the funds support the troop or the program, not the boy's individual account.

 

If a boy wants to raise money for camp, there is a very simple solution: go get a job. That's the only way it is truly on the up-and-up. I predict that sooner or later there will be a change to the ISA convention in Boy Scouts, given the number of people with axes to grind against the organization, not to mention the current stance of the IRS against conservative organizations......

Some years ago, I had a scout who needed to earn some dough to pay for summer camp, so I hired him to move and stack some firewood. He did a fine job and make exactly what he needed for camp. Of course a few weeks later I needed to hire another camper to move it back. I liked it better over there anyway.

[Rick_in_CA]

My apologies, the complete quote is:

 

Private Benefit Considerations

 

Councils should make sure that any sales materials, instructions, and support information do not make reference to individual scouts earning money for their own participation in Scouting activities.

 

When the council is remitting proceeds, from any sale, back to units, provide guidance on distribution of funds. Encourage units to develop fund distribution plans that include other criteria than sale of items.

 

These might include:

1. Participation in the camp card sale

2. Participation in the program

3. Leadership

4. Scout Spirit

5. Advancement

 

A portion of the proceeds from any sale or activity should be set aside for general unit expenses and could include funds used for assistance to members with financial need.

Well, this is just a power point presentation, so I would expect things to be simplified. However, I think it does show that National is aware of the legal problems with ISAs.

[boomerscout]

Camping is free. Some examples: Andersonville A primitive campsite is available, free of charge, across Highway 49 from the National Cemetery entrance on National Park Service land. The group campsite is available only for organized youth groups such as Boy and Girl Scouts and must be reserved at least two weeks in advance. Eligible groups should have a connection to the park including camping as part of a curriculum or program based visit to the park, or be providing volunteer assistance to the park. To reserve this campsite, call the park at least two weeks in advance Florida Scouts can trade work in the state park in lieu of camping fees. Look for a conservation tie-in. Properly approached, your area should have something similar with Federal or state agencies.

[boomerscout]

True kids under 14 cannot hold jobs, but they can be self-employed. Someone mentioned selling rabbits. They can also be the jr. neighborhood handyman, run errands, babysit, grow produce to sell, make something to sell

[King Ding Dong]

True kids under 14 cannot hold jobs, but they can be self-employed. Someone mentioned selling rabbits. They can also be the jr. neighborhood handyman, run errands, babysit, grow produce to sell, make something to sell

I suggest they make and sell popcorn.

[boomerscout]

Not unethical Scouting is recognized as an educational activity; camping is part and parcel of the education. If ISA are used for camp fees, field trips & uniforms, then everything OK. If one Scout uses his ISA to buy a Big Agnes, then not OK as that is individual, personal gain. and must be declared as income. However, Scout probably comes under the minimum earnings level to file. Didn't we discuss this last year?

[boomerscout]

True kids under 14 cannot hold jobs, but they can be self-employed. Someone mentioned selling rabbits. They can also be the jr. neighborhood handyman, run errands, babysit, grow produce to sell, make something to sell

If they make the popcorn, the "factory" must be first inspected by the Health Dept.

[fred johnson]

Yeah. It was discussed last year. It will keep coming up as the topic is riddled with contradctions.

 

We want scout accounts and those same accounts and our troops are subject to IRS rules.

 

We want scouts to earn money and pay their own way but we don't want to call it EARNINGS.

 

We want fundraising results to benefit those who did the fundraising but still keep our nonprofit status and avoid paying sales tax or deal with W2 or 1099 statements.

 

We want scouts to pay their own way, but then we want to control how and what they can use the money for. If they mow lawns, they can use the money for anything they want. If they sell popcorn and earn money, then it's only for scoutign.

 

We want to teach character and morals but to do scout accounts we have to bend rules and justify ourselves until the line is broken.

 

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boomerscout ... you yourself wrote your justification because it's too small to hit minimum earnings levels. But that's only true if the scout doesn't have another job working. i.e. 15, 16, 17 year old scouts.

 

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Ethical.... It's ethical in the exact same that going four miles over the speed limit is ethical. Who's hurt? It helps me achieve my goals a little bit easier. Everyone does it.

 

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I don't have a problem with it either way. Just be careful legally and let's think about the lesson we are teaching our scouts.

[Rick_in_CA]

Not unethical Scouting is recognized as an educational activity; camping is part and parcel of the education. If ISA are used for camp fees, field trips & uniforms, then everything OK. If one Scout uses his ISA to buy a Big Agnes, then not OK as that is individual, personal gain. and must be declared as income. However, Scout probably comes under the minimum earnings level to file. Didn't we discuss this last year?

I posted the link to the discussion above. Yes, we did hash this out. What you are describing here looks iffy (though not automatically illegal). Take it too an extreme: a scout joins a troop right before popcorn. Sells a bunch of popcorn and ends up with $1,000 in his ISA. He spends it all an new camping equipment, and quits scouts the next day, walking away with his $1,000 of new equipment. This is clearly private benefit.

 

Go re-read the old thread. All this was hashed over. And the conclusion I thought was pretty clear - ISAs are a bad idea both ethically and legally. But many units will insist an having them anyway.

[King Ding Dong]

True kids under 14 cannot hold jobs, but they can be self-employed. Someone mentioned selling rabbits. They can also be the jr. neighborhood handyman, run errands, babysit, grow produce to sell, make something to sell

He will endure pickets from trade unions if he is a handyman, insurance issues running errands, pedophilia charges babysitting, FDA and EPA regulations if starting a farm. How does the PTO get away with a bake sale ?

[boomerscout]

Not unethical Scouting is recognized as an educational activity; camping is part and parcel of the education. If ISA are used for camp fees, field trips & uniforms, then everything OK. If one Scout uses his ISA to buy a Big Agnes, then not OK as that is individual, personal gain. and must be declared as income. However, Scout probably comes under the minimum earnings level to file. Didn't we discuss this last year?

Scout would not be allowed to spend $1000 on camping equipment as money is not allowed to leave the organization -- the troop. He can spend it within the organization for camp fee, High Adventure fees & permit & optional program extras, and for uniforms. He cannot withdraw cash to go and spend it on his own. Now, the troop as a whole can buy everyone in the troop a Big Agnus if it really believes it will further enhance its camping program -- one of its reasons for existence. Cash motivational awards, such as a $1000 gift card for selling a case of Trails End, are allowed -- it's taxable income to the Scout. As long as all the "eyes" are crossed and all the tees are dotted, Scout leaders can even be compensated. Not all non-profits are charities. Perhaps ISA should be denominated in units or credits instead of in money. I missed your earlier post, I can't get this website to scroll most of the time

[fred johnson]

Not unethical Scouting is recognized as an educational activity; camping is part and parcel of the education. If ISA are used for camp fees, field trips & uniforms, then everything OK. If one Scout uses his ISA to buy a Big Agnes, then not OK as that is individual, personal gain. and must be declared as income. However, Scout probably comes under the minimum earnings level to file. Didn't we discuss this last year?

Boomerscout ...

 

"credits instead of in money" ... but then if someone doesn't have the credits, can they pay cash instead? It ends up being the same thing. A credit has a specific monetary value.

 

Great point on charity versus non-profit. Way about the level of most troops to manage though.

 

I think key is the "AS LONG AS ALL THE "EYES" ARE CROSSED AND ALL THE TEES ARE DOTTED" is the real statement. Troops / units don't do that. Unit leadership is continually taking administrative shortcuts through ignorance or volunteer time constraints. We all know that. The "good enough" approach creates the legal and ethical dilemmas.