Eagle92 Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 As one of those scouts who needed an ISA to stay involved, I am all for it. Seriously if it wasn't for the 'scout account' that allowed me to pay dues, go camping, summer camp, etc I would not have been able to afford Scouting after my father walked out. My troop did one fundraiser a year: working at a local fair. The troop got a set amount to do cleanup, and that was divided by the total number of man hours used for cleanup, and each scout that much per hour worked. We could only use it for program,i.e. dues, camp outs, etc, not supplies. Now the troop also had a hot dog and lemonade stand that the adults worked. That money was used by the troop as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 As one of those scouts who needed an ISA to stay involved, I am all for it. Seriously if it wasn't for the 'scout account' that allowed me to pay dues, go camping, summer camp, etc I would not have been able to afford Scouting after my father walked out. My troop did one fundraiser a year: working at a local fair. The troop got a set amount to do cleanup, and that was divided by the total number of man hours used for cleanup, and each scout that much per hour worked. We could only use it for program,i.e. dues, camp outs, etc, not supplies. Now the troop also had a hot dog and lemonade stand that the adults worked. That money was used by the troop as a whole. Sounds a bit like a formula to calculate an hourly wage for the boys. As altruistic as it may sound, it still has questionable undertones of ethics. Yes, money can be tight for families, but there are still thrifty scouts out there that do personal odd-jobs on the side to pay for their scouting experience. I didn't need to worry about "how the money can be spent". It went to camp fees, uniforms, equipment and candy bars at the trading post. If the event was a service project, I rolled up my sleeves and helped out. If it was a fund raiser for scout accounts, I always took a pass. I would always make more money for the effort on my own. Nothing worse than trying to sell stupid fire extinguishers door to door when the time spent would be more productive mowing lawns for the neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it ethically correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf So help me understand what is ethical. Scouts sell popcorn in differing amounts, all proceeds go to general fund. Troop pays 75% of each scouts summer camp fee. Sounds like SOCIALISM to me! Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf Just because I donate money to a program doesn't mean it can't be allocated fairly. If I give $$ to a program that buys blankets for needy people somewhere in the world, does that mean the half dozen people that helped unload the truck get to take an extra blanket or two just because they helped? Just because someone made up some rule some place doesn't make it ethical, just or moral. It just means someone made up a rule so that some can have something more/less than the next guy. Doesn't sound very Scout-like to me. But then that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf Just because someone made up some rule that all proceeds go to the general fund doesn't make it ethical, just or moral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred johnson Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf King Ding Dong ... "someone" = US government statues clarified, documented and enforced by the IRS. IRS doesn't care to handle a blanket or small amounts. So if your ethics are affected by if you can fly by under the radar, go for it. Heck, scouts privately benefiting by raising funds for a non-profit isn't really that bad is it. Our scouts do it too. .... But it doesn't make it ethically right or fair. It's just what we need to do to make the unit finances work right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf It most certainly does. People donated money with the ethical, moral, and just purpose that it goes to helping out the unit, not the individuals within that group. I don't contribute dime one to any telephone solicited charities no matter how honorable it is, the telephone solicitors take up to 90% of those funds for doing the phone solicitations. Just look at the South Carolina official web page. The Top Ten Scams are listed there. They are ALL phone solicitation companies. When someone donates to a cause, they all assume it will be ethically used in the manner in which it was given. If Mom and Dad want their child to have $$ for summer camp, they do not buy popcorn, they write a check to the camp. They know where their $$ are going. If they buy popcorn it is assumed that the funds are going to the unit. Actually, technically it is going to the CO which in turn is supposed to be financial guardians for the unit. It is under their exempt status the money is received, not the unit's. The unit does not have an exempt number of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolaidman Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf Notice the commission for camp cards goes to the unit, not the scout: "Introducing… The Camp Card The Camp Card program is designed to help Scouts earn their way to summer resident camp, high adventure, or day camp. Units participating in this program will earn 50 percent commission ($2.50) for each $5 Camp Card they sell." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_in_CA Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 How is an individual scout account any different than the Camp Card program the BSA has been rolling out ? 1/2 of the money goes directly to each scout to pay for camp. http://www.stlbsa.org/programs/campcards/Documents/2013%20leader%20guide%20GSLAC%20StL.pdf Go read the national presentation on the camp card program: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/Camp_Card_Presentation-National_Meeting.pdf where it makes it very clear that funds are intended for the Units to support their activities. It includes the following under the section "Private Benefit Considerations" Councils should make sure that any sales materials, instructions, and support information do not make reference to individual scouts earning money for their own participation in Scouting activities. When the council is remitting proceeds, from any sale, back to units, provide guidance on distribution of funds. Encourage units to develop fund distribution plans that include other criteria than sale of items. Which says to me that national is very aware that while many units use ISAs, they are often legally questionable. Camp Cards are another fund raiser like popcorn sales. And should be treated the same. They are not another form of ISA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Ok. Learn something new everyday. We only sold two camp cards this spring so I hope we don't do hard time for that $5. I guess as IH I should be looking in to this. Crap, and we have several lawyers in the troop. The interesting part of that quote is "include other criteria than sale of items". I read that as sale of items can be one criteria but you must include other criteria. I am not a lawyer, I just play on the Internet sometimes. Anybody have any idea what other criteria can be used or should be used ? I can't imagine a troop committee is equipped to start evaluating every families financial need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Ok. Learn something new everyday. We only sold two camp cards this spring so I hope we don't do hard time for that $5. I guess as IH I should be looking in to this. Crap, and we have several lawyers in the troop. The interesting part of that quote is "include other criteria than sale of items". I read that as sale of items can be one criteria but you must include other criteria. I am not a lawyer, I just play on the Internet sometimes. Anybody have any idea what other criteria can be used or should be used ? I can't imagine a troop committee is equipped to start evaluating every families financial need.My ipad won't copy out of that ppt but right after that quote it suggests other criteria such as "participation in the camp card program". So clearly your level of sales can impact the funds you receive. Just lawyers doing what lawyers do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewmeister Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 This is the reason that the Girl Scouts not only disallow ISAs, but have also eliminated the gift card incentives from their sales. Every ISA program that I know of involves the scout going out and selling something on behalf of the BOY SCOUTS. "I'm Johnnie from so-and-so troop and would you like to buy some widgets?" The implication is that the funds support the troop or the program, not the boy's individual account. If a boy wants to raise money for camp, there is a very simple solution: go get a job. That's the only way it is truly on the up-and-up. I predict that sooner or later there will be a change to the ISA convention in Boy Scouts, given the number of people with axes to grind against the organization, not to mention the current stance of the IRS against conservative organizations...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_in_CA Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 My apologies, the complete quote is: Private Benefit Considerations Councils should make sure that any sales materials, instructions, and support information do not make reference to individual scouts earning money for their own participation in Scouting activities. When the council is remitting proceeds, from any sale, back to units, provide guidance on distribution of funds. Encourage units to develop fund distribution plans that include other criteria than sale of items. These might include: 1. Participation in the camp card sale 2. Participation in the program 3. Leadership 4. Scout Spirit 5. Advancement A portion of the proceeds from any sale or activity should be set aside for general unit expenses and could include funds used for assistance to members with financial need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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