Ethics of ISA accounts

[fred johnson]

The 20% is probably to keep under the IRS "INSUBSTANTIAL" criteria. Though 20% seems substantial.

 

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Transferring money to another troop. Surprised to see that. Ya know ... Our troop recently decided to NOT send money with the scout if he transfers. What if the scout with $1200 transfers to another troop and quits in three months? Will the other troop send the money back to us?

 

We might pay for the camping in the other troop on a camp out by camp out basis. We've yet to decide that. The issue is the scout raised the money with the troop's support. Seems like it should go to supporting his activity in our troop or go to help the other scouts in our troop. But then whose money is it? If the scout quits scouting, we don't write them a check out. Should we?

 

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The other thing I just realized ... never clicked before ... DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE SCOUT SAYS. Checks are written to the troop ... i.e. the non-profit. That is explicit evidence of money going to the non-profit. Seems that would trump anything the scout said he'd said. It makes all sales a troop fundraiser. Hmmm.... Need to think about it.

 

Even if we do it well and mange the nuances, scouts are taking advantage of the implied good will of the non-profit for their own benefit. Hmmmmm.... Ethics are interesting thing.

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I suggest telling the scout to mow yards or shovel drive ways to pay for scouting.

[Rick_in_CA]

The legalities and ethics of Individual Scout Accounts have been discussed before. Everyone should go and read the old thread: http://www.scouter.com/forum/cub-scouts/18621-seperate-scout-accounts.

 

I think it is pretty clear, ISAs are not legal or ethical unless you jump through a bunch of hoops, and are very careful.

 

 

[Frank17]

There is certainly nothing unethical about ISAs PROVIDED they are run properly. Examples:

 

Johnny goes around selling popcorn to his neighbors telling them that the sale profits will go to fund his troop and his trip to Camp XYZ. The money is used by the troop and for Johnny to attend Camp XYZ - no problem.

 

 

Jimmy goes around selling popcorn to his neighbors telling them that the profits will benefit boy scouts, and be used by the Troop to purchase gear. Instead, the money is used to send him to Camp. - PROBLEM.

 

Basically, there is no problem with ISAs from fundraising provided the stated purpose of the fundraising is disclosed & maintained. Its when excess is collected or the purpose is changed that the ethical issues arise. We DO NOT use ISAs in our troop, but we do allow fundraising for Eagle project costs. In that case, any excess MUST be given to the organization sponsoring the eagle project, or be burned up during the eagle project.

You are correct, excess per se is not a problem. BUT, many of the fundraising issues I see personally come from Eagle projects that raise too much money and dont know how to deal with that. The solution is to donale it to the project sponsoring org, but most Eagle scout candidates do not seem to know this, as it has never been discussed with them. In the context of ISAs and the Troop, as long as the purpose remains the same (collecting for Troop or individual scout), it is not really an issue, I agree.

[kari_cardi]

So what is the clearest, most ethical and legal way for a scout to pay for his expenses? I've not been a fan of ISAs for several reasons, and now I see that group fundraising is not without pitfalls. Not all parents can afford to pay all the expenses out of pocket, and not all scouts can earn enough money to do so themselves. I am especially thinking of the 11.5yo scouts who just crossed over...too young to mow lawns or deliver papers around here, and few other jobs available.

[Stosh]

I couldn't get a paper-route until I was 14. Before that, I shoveled walks, mowed lawns and tilled gardens with a shovel, just to mention a few things. I had all the money I needed even before I was old enough to "work". When one has earned the money, they also have earned the right to determine how it was spent. A buddy of mine got the idea to raise rabbits and earned enough money to have plenty while in high school and then completely pay for college through the masters degree level. Keep it in mind, rabbit meat in the stores is more expensive than beef. He did the math, it was a lot of work, but it gained him a lot of money. He did this all out of his folk's garage.

 

One of the original requirements for a scout was to open a bank account and start putting money aside. I have no idea when that went away, but it's a lot easier to just reach into mom/dad's pockets than it is to actually earn money these days. Until parents put their foot down and teach their children about the importance of money, not much is going to change.

 

One last thing... when did TRIFTY turn into me earning my way to camp to having everyone in the neighborhood donate to me going to camp?

[fred johnson]

Hold a troop fundraiser and reduce the camping cost for all scouts in your troop ... equally. Raise enough to send all your troop scouts to summer camp.

 

Today's scouting is not cheap. I'd imagine 60 years ago you could easily find a field, bring wool blankets and camp. VERY CHEAP. Times have changed.

[Kristinandart]

So what is the clearest, most ethical and legal way for a scout to pay for his expenses? I've not been a fan of ISAs for several reasons, and now I see that group fundraising is not without pitfalls. Not all parents can afford to pay all the expenses out of pocket, and not all scouts can earn enough money to do so themselves. I am especially thinking of the 11.5yo scouts who just crossed over...too young to mow lawns or deliver papers around here, and few other jobs available.

I am new to the site but would like to post a question. My son joined as a Weblo in the fall of 2011. Even though we were told his popcorn and card sales would be credited to his account, we never received an account. The following year when my son crossed over we were part of a new group. I made SURE he was given an account. However, my son (at 11 years old) worked 10 hour days both Saturday and Sunday on 3 different weekends for a total of 60 hours. He and one other child sold $2000.00 worth of popcorn. The entire troop combined sold a total of $3000.00. My son received $120.00 to his account. When I questioned how it was broken down, I was told that each child received a portion of the percentage of the sales. He did not receive ANY credit for the cards he sold, And $70.00 in dues were deducted from his account for dues in addition to the check we wrote for $40.00 for dues. I am sure each district/troop does it differently but does anyone know if there are official BSA rules regarding the breakdown of the sales credited it to each account? Thanks for your assistance.

[King Ding Dong]

So what is the clearest, most ethical and legal way for a scout to pay for his expenses? I've not been a fan of ISAs for several reasons, and now I see that group fundraising is not without pitfalls. Not all parents can afford to pay all the expenses out of pocket, and not all scouts can earn enough money to do so themselves. I am especially thinking of the 11.5yo scouts who just crossed over...too young to mow lawns or deliver papers around here, and few other jobs available.

Who gets a newspaper anymore and last I checked the routes were all franchises that cost well over 10k and require a vehicle.

 

I mowed lots at 11 but had the physical ability. My oldest at close to 11 weighs 60 lbs and has 1% body fat. He just can't push it up a hill.

 

I have an electric smoker and he loves to help me cook ribs, butts and briskets. Thinking about having him develop a price list and offer to deliver BBQ to neighbors for Sunday afternoon football games and dinner. He could offer the option of 7 types of smoke and spice rubs. Probably would mesh well with the entrepreneur MB.

 

I don't know if it will be successful, but we sure make better BBQ than any suburban strip mall joint.

[Stosh]

Hold a troop fundraiser and reduce the camping cost for all scouts in your troop ... equally. Raise enough to send all your troop scouts to summer camp.

 

Today's scouting is not cheap. I'd imagine 60 years ago you could easily find a field, bring wool blankets and camp. VERY CHEAP. Times have changed.

The first time I went to Boy Scout Summer camp, the cost was $29.50 for the week.

[King Ding Dong]

Hold a troop fundraiser and reduce the camping cost for all scouts in your troop ... equally. Raise enough to send all your troop scouts to summer camp.

 

Today's scouting is not cheap. I'd imagine 60 years ago you could easily find a field, bring wool blankets and camp. VERY CHEAP. Times have changed.

Jblake, BP himself must have been the Camp Director.

 

Fred, after seeing all the boys abandon their wall tents at summer camp last week, I am starting to question the need to set tents up at all unless rain is expected. Could save a lot on wear and tear.

[MattR]

Our rules are that ISA accounts are fine but the money can only be used for purely scout related purposes. Apparently there is precedence with the IRS (something about marching bands) that this is good enough to pass their "no personal gain" rule. So, a scout asked if he could use the money to buy a bike for a high adventure trip and we said no, as the bike would also be used after the high adventure trip for personal gain. Using the money to pay for the high adventure trip was fine. Using it for jamboree is fine. Using it for church camp is not fine. Using it for summer camp is fine. Basically, using it for gear is not OK. Once a scout turns 18 he loses all of his money, so adults can not have accounts.

[Stosh]

If this issue was legitimate, ethical, on the up-and-up, none of this discussion would be happening. The original thread should read, "How far can we abuse troop funds of our chartering organization before someone notices and we get into trouble?" A little honesty in the BSA program/troops is a refreshing thing. Manipulating, shuffling accounts, staying under the radar, if marching bands do it, we can, too, etc. are not activities we need to be teaching our boys.

[Basementdweller]

Hold a troop fundraiser and reduce the camping cost for all scouts in your troop ... equally. Raise enough to send all your troop scouts to summer camp.

 

Today's scouting is not cheap. I'd imagine 60 years ago you could easily find a field, bring wool blankets and camp. VERY CHEAP. Times have changed.

Ya my first summer camp was $22 and I went a second week and it was $15.... I had to borrow money from mom and she made a huge deal about it and my poor planning......Heck I didn't even know I could go for a second week....

 

Fred.....It was a different time, growing up my parents had one car, one TV and we didn't have cable TV, cell phones or internet, Now everyone has two cars, motorcycles, boats, a TV in every room in the house and honestly more disposable income than probably ever....

 

Camping was probably pretty comparable in cost....The big difference I see is the access to property to camp on free or cheap and local donations. Our troop camped on a one of about 8 farms for free.....Cost for a campout was $3-5 for the weekend and the canoe guy let us go free. Now we have $100 for a campsite then we have to pay for canoes or rappelling.....or what ever the program is.....Our camporees are $15 a head just to register....then another $15 for food.....

[gumbymaster]

So what is the clearest, most ethical and legal way for a scout to pay for his expenses? I've not been a fan of ISAs for several reasons, and now I see that group fundraising is not without pitfalls. Not all parents can afford to pay all the expenses out of pocket, and not all scouts can earn enough money to do so themselves. I am especially thinking of the 11.5yo scouts who just crossed over...too young to mow lawns or deliver papers around here, and few other jobs available.

Be very careful about that BBQ fund raiser. Many communities require sold food to be prepared at a licensed and health-department rated facility. And if, heaven forbid, someone were to get sick, it would be your insurance, etc. covering the risk.

[packsaddle]

If this issue was legitimate, ethical, on the up-and-up, none of this discussion would be happening. The original thread should read, "How far can we abuse troop funds of our chartering organization before someone notices and we get into trouble?" A little honesty in the BSA program/troops is a refreshing thing. Manipulating, shuffling accounts, staying under the radar, if marching bands do it, we can, too, etc. are not activities we need to be teaching our boys.

I agree 100%