Is "Belief in a Supreme Being" an Actual Rule by Now?

[Pint]

The 'God or/and religion Issue is something that if its radicaly changed would ave to be done so at an international level, this is an interesting article on the subject from the World Organisation of the Scout Movement http://www.scout.org/information_events/resource_centre/the_leader_s_questions/spiritual_dimension

From a UK point of view the God issue exists over here as well, but in a much watered down format, stating that an avowed absence of religous belif is a bar to taking on an adult leadership role within Scouting.

[Pint]

The 'God or/and religion Issue is something that if its radicaly changed would ave to be done so at an international level, this is an interesting article on the subject from the World Organisation of the Scout Movement http://www.scout.org/information_events/resource_centre/the_leader_s_questions/spiritual_dimension

From a UK point of view the God issue exists over here as well, but in a much watered down format, stating that an avowed absence of religous belief is a bar to taking on an adult leadership role within Scouting.

[Eagledad]

qwazse: The sad part about this is if a kid thinks a particular stone is his salvation and is not disparaging his buddy's devotion to Allah, I'd count it as reverent.

 

Why is that "sad"?

I agree with you jrush, but I wonder if we have come to a place in our pop culture where it is more politcally correct to contribute to the degrading mental health of a boy who worships a rock than take some responsibility to point out the obvious. You can take that as far as you want, but when that boy becomes a man, do we really want some of the credit for helping him become the mental mess he might become. I'd feel a little better if I'd at least talked to his parents about it, even if they are likely the problem. And yes, I did have that discussion with the parents of scout who worshipped witches. The parents didn't worship witches, but they were the problem. Barry

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

qwazse: The sad part about this is if a kid thinks a particular stone is his salvation and is not disparaging his buddy's devotion to Allah, I'd count it as reverent.

 

Why is that "sad"?

"I agree with you jrush, but I wonder if we have come to a place in our pop culture where it is more politcally correct to contribute to the degrading mental health of a boy who worships a rock than take some responsibility to point out the obvious."

 

Is the mental health of someone who worships a rock worse than someone who worships a Jewish zombie?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I'm always amazed at the mean spirited abuse others inflict on others by throwing around the word discrimination. It's not about clearly communicating. It's hate speech. BSA has always had a faith component.

 

Now we can debate if BSA should change that, but it's not discrimination any more than my neighbor discriminating against me when he doesn't want me entering his house without permission.

 

Personally, I think BSA should leave membership to the charter orgs because it's the only way to avoid the ugly interactions of people we've seen flood these threads for years.

"The BSA is in the business of teaching young men and women to be responsible, moral members of society. 95% of Americans believe something. That's why the religious component of scouting is so important."

 

So if 95% of Americans were Christian, should the BSA exclude all non-Christians? That may have been true when they started.

 

Christopher Hitchens:

Name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever.

The second challenge. Can anyone think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith?

 

The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first awaits a convincing reply.

[Rick_in_CA]

The 'God or/and religion Issue is something that if its radicaly changed would ave to be done so at an international level' date=' this is an interesting article on the subject from the World Organisation of the Scout Movement http://www.scout.org/information_eve...tual_dimension

From a UK point of view the God issue exists over here as well, but in a much watered down format, stating that an avowed absence of religous belief is a bar to taking on an adult leadership role within Scouting.

 

Scouts Canada allows atheists, provided they have a "basic spiritual belief" (which isn't really defined - do you have to believe in ghosts?). What is interesting is the WOSM link you provided specifically says no belief in God is required, then dodges the whole "Atheist" question by ignoring what the word means (a non-theist).

 

Basically they appear to be saying something of the form: "Atheist is a bad word, so we don't want to apply it to those good atheists over there. So we are going to make up a new definition for the word so we can pretend it doesn't." This is a common way of treating the word by people that haven't really thought it through, or don't understand what the word really means. "Those bad people are Atheists, so those good people can't be Atheists!".

 

The same thing applies to the word: "agnostic".

[Eagledad]

qwazse: The sad part about this is if a kid thinks a particular stone is his salvation and is not disparaging his buddy's devotion to Allah, I'd count it as reverent.

 

Why is that "sad"?

No, they both need help. You think yourself the smartest guy in the room, is there a point when the health of citizens in our community trumps political correctness?

[Rick_in_CA]

OK, Finally!!!

 

Here's the response I had tried to send a while back:

 

 

 

Welcome to the forums. You are not alone. I think Merlyn may be better

 

able to respond to your questions as he is a long-time forum member

 

and critic, and is quite knowledgeable with regard to this topic. My

 

response is that the membership application now has a Declaration of

 

Religious Principle (DRP) that anyone signing the form agrees to. From

 

my experience, some people never notice it, and even when they do,

 

they don't pay much attention to it. Others take the DRP very

 

seriously. There's quite a diverse set of views on it.

 

 

 

As near as I can tell, the requirement is for a belief in a 'higher

 

power', not necessarily a supreme being. As I understand it, BSA will

 

accept a belief system that worships a rock or even the 'Flying

 

Spaghetti Monster', (I'm not making this stuff up) both of which, to

 

my mind, hardly qualify as a supreme being...at least not.any more

 

than my cat does (although that cat evidently THINKS it is some kind

 

of supreme being).

 

 

 

In this manner, BSA has, for all practical purposes, accepted any

 

belief system, although a recent forum member has noted that being

 

Pagan has led to local rejection. One forum member long ago noted that

 

his belief in the "higher power of reason" seems to be acceptable to

 

BSA. And in response, even some of the most devout forum members

 

shrank from criticizing him. It's hard to argue with that one.....

Trevorum, that's interesting. Does that mean the UUA religious awards might be reinstated? Or is there just too much animosity toward the UUA still in the BSA? Or would that require them to admit they were wrong, which can't happen?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

qwazse: The sad part about this is if a kid thinks a particular stone is his salvation and is not disparaging his buddy's devotion to Allah, I'd count it as reverent.

 

Why is that "sad"?

Well, besides this rock-worshipper and Christians (Jesus = Jewish zombie), which other religious beliefs do you equate with mental disorders? Even I don't go quite that far.

[Eagledad]

qwazse: The sad part about this is if a kid thinks a particular stone is his salvation and is not disparaging his buddy's devotion to Allah, I'd count it as reverent.

 

Why is that "sad"?

That is the answer I expected. OK thanks.

[Scouter99]

I was referring to God or belief in a higher power within the BSA. One of the anti gay folks said it would be next

More like "all of the anti-gay folks knew it would be next." And the pro-gay for that matter.

[Scouter99]

Let's try this again.

 

I need to

 

You need to get over it, or go to the local council and view the bylaws, or hire a lawyer and call the LA Times. Unlike the ban on homosexuals, the BSA's religious stance is right there on both the youth and adult application, it's in the oath, it's in the handbook, it's part of the program. If swearing as an atheist to do your duty to God didn't tip you off that you were going to intrinsically be in conflict with BSA, you either weren't paying attention, or you wanted that conflict. BSA didn't cause your suffering, you caused your suffering when you knowingly and willfully joined an organization which you knew was incompatible with your beliefs. You can camp without god in Campfire USA.

 

We've answered your question: Refer to the BSA Declaration of Religious Principle. There are already plenty of websites dedicated to tearing BSA down, I'm sure they can give you the ammo you're looking for.

[qwazse]

qwazse: The sad part about this is if a kid thinks a particular stone is his salvation and is not disparaging his buddy's devotion to Allah, I'd count it as reverent.

 

Why is that "sad"?

The kid's reverence stone-ward isn't sad. That someone thinks we should boot him from scouting because the rock is not *their kind of* supreme being ... that's sad.

 

Given the rapid sophistication of the Zombie in pop-culture over the past few decades, let's just extrapolate and count your jab as veneration!

[Eagledad]

I think you meant assault on "God".

The sad part about this is if a kid thinks a particular stone is his salvation and is not disparaging his buddy's devotion to Allah, I'd count it as reverent. If he acted in a way that treated that rock as supreme (even if it was a lady rock ), I'd count it as fulfilling his duty to God.

 

I'd expect a little more sophistication from adults, but not much.

 

And, that's how I've seen it played out by scouters in my neck of the woods.

Nobody said boot him out, I was discussing mental health. As for the jab, I'm not sure who you are refering, but you do know that zombies aren't real. Neither are vanpires.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Let's try this again.

 

I need to

 

You need to get over it, or go to the local council and view the bylaws, or hire a lawyer and call the LA Times. Unlike the ban on homosexuals, the BSA's religious stance is right there on both the youth and adult application, it's in the oath, it's in the handbook, it's part of the program. If swearing as an atheist to do your duty to God didn't tip you off that you were going to intrinsically be in conflict with BSA, you either weren't paying attention, or you wanted that conflict. BSA didn't cause your suffering, you caused your suffering when you knowingly and willfully joined an organization which you knew was incompatible with your beliefs. You can camp without god in Campfire USA.

 

We've answered your question: Refer to the BSA Declaration of Religious Principle. There are already plenty of websites dedicated to tearing BSA down, I'm sure they can give you the ammo you're looking for.

Well Scouter99, some other people might want to help him. You don't have to involve yourself in this thread if you don't want to.