Minimum Scout Age/Grade

[Faith]

Hi all,

 

Yesterday a couple of us (CM, asst. CM, 2 den leaders and our DD) met at the library with some parents from the local elementary schools who were interested in their sons signing up for scouts next year when they enter first grade. After a minor...discussion (I will not call it an altercation) with our district director who was also there, this question came up. I'm gonna nose around online as well and see if I can find more information on this:

 

I was always under the impression that a scout had to be 7 OR in the first grade to join. My son won't be 7 until second grade (due to when his birthday falls) but he was allowed in last year due to his grade, not age. Is there any 'exceptions' to this rule that would allow a kindergartener or 6 year old into scouting (as a Tiger, not any rank that may exist in some areas for younger boys.)

[King Ding Dong]

My youngest was six the entire 1st grade. My oldest was still 5 when he started 1st grade. I don't really understand your question. Why would you want a kindergartener to start Tiger with a bunch of 1st graders ?

[jc2008]

Tiger cubs are primarily 1st graders. When kids are that young you want to keep them in groups of the same maturity level. And grade level is a big factor in maturity level.

Officially: The Tiger Cub Scout program is for boys who have completed Kindergarten (or are age 7).

 

You really do not want to make exceptions to that rule as you want the kid to be with his peers and maturity level. In our den we have kids ranging in age from 7-9 and it was a Wolf den this year. We had kids who were on the young side, kids who were on the old side and kids inbetween. But all the kids are basically of the same maturity level/mind set because they were all second graders (and one 1st grader who was held back)

 

When you make any decision in scouting, always start off with the thought, "What is best for the kid?" and keeping the kid with his peers so he is able to participate at the same level as the other kids is really what is best for the kid.

[Faith]

Ok, here's the thing. There were two parents at the meeting. Both with two sons, one going into Kindergarten this Fall, one going into First grade. When I went to help them sign up the first graders, one asked if her Kindergartener could also join so they'd be together. The other parent liked the idea and said she'd like to know as well. I told her I didn't believe so (due to both being 5 until November and next March and going into K5) but I'd ask the DD (this was to cover my own butt.) He said sure, no problem, brushed it off like it was nothing. He then came over and helped them fill the stuff out. Our CM heard this and pretty much stated what I did, that he thought they were too young. The DD pretty much shushed him until the parents were gone. I then went on to explain why I asked that and he kept saying he didn't see the big deal, this would keep them together. I told him I understood that, I just thought when their fellow classmates hit first (and possibly join up), they will be a year ahead of the rest (I wasn't sure if this was frowned upon, allowed, etc.)

[Faith]

My youngest was six the entire 1st grade. My oldest was still 5 when he started 1st grade. I don't really understand your question. Why would you want a kindergartener to start Tiger with a bunch of 1st graders ?

Right, both yours were in first grade (I'm assuming) when joining (despite age.) I was wondering if a child isn't 7 AND isn't in First Grade, were they still allowed under special circumstances (my example being with siblings.)

[King Ding Dong]

Ok, here's the thing. There were two parents at the meeting. Both with two sons, one going into Kindergarten this Fall, one going into First grade. When I went to help them sign up the first graders, one asked if her Kindergartener could also join so they'd be together. The other parent liked the idea and said she'd like to know as well. I told her I didn't believe so (due to both being 5 until November and next March and going into K5) but I'd ask the DD (this was to cover my own butt.) He said sure, no problem, brushed it off like it was nothing. He then came over and helped them fill the stuff out. Our CM heard this and pretty much stated what I did, that he thought they were too young. The DD pretty much shushed him until the parents were gone. I then went on to explain why I asked that and he kept saying he didn't see the big deal, this would keep them together. I told him I understood that, I just thought when their fellow classmates hit first (and possibly join up), they will be a year ahead of the rest (I wasn't sure if this was frowned upon, allowed, etc.)

I don't know the official National policy here but from a practical level this is going to blow up on these parents when it is time to crossover to Boy Scouts. You will have a child who is only half way through fourth grade becoming a full fledged BS and be expected to handle the change which I can testify is dramatic.

 

They may look real cute together in their matching uniforms and this will certainly make life simpler for the parents in the short term. An additional downside is they will likely be in the same new scout patrol and not learning independence from each other. Unless the youngest is exceptionally mature I see nothing positive in allowing this.

 

Oh and what is a DD? Designated Driver? (Sounds like he needs to sober up)

[ScoutNut]

Ok, here's the thing. There were two parents at the meeting. Both with two sons, one going into Kindergarten this Fall, one going into First grade. When I went to help them sign up the first graders, one asked if her Kindergartener could also join so they'd be together. The other parent liked the idea and said she'd like to know as well. I told her I didn't believe so (due to both being 5 until November and next March and going into K5) but I'd ask the DD (this was to cover my own butt.) He said sure, no problem, brushed it off like it was nothing. He then came over and helped them fill the stuff out. Our CM heard this and pretty much stated what I did, that he thought they were too young. The DD pretty much shushed him until the parents were gone. I then went on to explain why I asked that and he kept saying he didn't see the big deal, this would keep them together. I told him I understood that, I just thought when their fellow classmates hit first (and possibly join up), they will be a year ahead of the rest (I wasn't sure if this was frowned upon, allowed, etc.)

While your District Director (DD) was helping those parents to fill out the BSA Youth Application it would have been a good idea if he, and the parents, had actually read it first.

 

On page 3 of the application there is quite a lot of information that is good for parents to know. Included is a list of membership requirements.

 

"Tiger Cubâ€â€Must be under the age of 8, have completed kindergarten or be in the first grade, or be age 7."

 

To make it even clearer (if it is not clear enough) put the word "AND" in after "Must be under the age of 8".

 

Your DD did a VERY big disservice to these boys. If, by some quirk of computer, these two kindergarteners fall thru the cracks, and are allowed to register, they will NOT be able to cross to Boy Scouts with their brothers. They simply will not be old enough.

 

Odds are the applications for the two kindergarten boys will be rejected by your council registrar. However, just to be sure, I suggest giving the registrar a call TODAY, and explain what happened. Then someone needs to call these parents and tell them their younger sons are NOT going to be registered until they complete kindergarten.

[King Ding Dong]

Ok, here's the thing. There were two parents at the meeting. Both with two sons, one going into Kindergarten this Fall, one going into First grade. When I went to help them sign up the first graders, one asked if her Kindergartener could also join so they'd be together. The other parent liked the idea and said she'd like to know as well. I told her I didn't believe so (due to both being 5 until November and next March and going into K5) but I'd ask the DD (this was to cover my own butt.) He said sure, no problem, brushed it off like it was nothing. He then came over and helped them fill the stuff out. Our CM heard this and pretty much stated what I did, that he thought they were too young. The DD pretty much shushed him until the parents were gone. I then went on to explain why I asked that and he kept saying he didn't see the big deal, this would keep them together. I told him I understood that, I just thought when their fellow classmates hit first (and possibly join up), they will be a year ahead of the rest (I wasn't sure if this was frowned upon, allowed, etc.)

You know the birth dates so you can do the math, but these are the Boy Scout joining requirements.

 

pg 17 Boy Scout handbook "be a boy who is 11 years old, OR one who has completed the fifth grade OR earned the arrow of light award AND is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.

 

Earning Arrow of Light at 9 will not cut it. The reasoning behind the arrow of light exception is the requirements have prepared a boy through his activities and associations with troops to start early.

 

Remember Webelos is about an 18 month program, in the second year they generally cross over to the troop in the feb-April timeframe to get them acclimated to the troop and a couple of weekend campouts under their belt before the weeklong summer camp.

 

Now there is also the principle that we do not punish the boy for the mistakes of adult leaders. So if the damage has been done and the parents and boys can't be convinced that it is better over the long term to follow the rules (not a bad lesson to teach children). You, the parents and this rouge DD can walk this up the chain all the way to National and see if you can get a signed commitment to waive the joining requirements. Don't know if you will get it. Good luck.

[blw2]

Interesting situation..... I think it better for the boys to not be admitted until the 1st grade.....

 

On a parallel note, I was thinking about something just the other day when I for some reason pulled out my old BS Handbook. At B&G when our pack does it's annual crossover, my son won't technically be old enough for Boy Scouts.

Checking the modern standards, per the BSA web site

If you're a boy age 11, or at least 10 and have completed the fifth grade, or have earned the Cub Scout Arrow of Light Award, to 17 years old, the time for a real adventure is now.

At crossover time, assuming of course that my son sticks with it and wants to cross over..., he'll be IN the 5th grade and will be 10 years old. So if he doesn't earn the AOL, he'll not technically be allowed to cross over I guess...... but he was perfectly "by the book" to join as a Tiger in the 1st grade. Kind of a loop hole for sure where BSA ages don't mesh well with the school systems.....

So he's one of the youngest in the class, and one of the youngest in his den, but he fits right in with all of them..... in fact excels.

 

BUT, while his age is on the low end, his ability and maturity fall more in step I think with the school grade level. This is why I think the OP's situation with kindergarten kids is a bad fit.....

[Faith]

Thank you all, I know this was done for two reasons (neither of which I agree with.) One, so the parents would allow their first graders to join (because having them together is more convenient for them) and two for money (our DD LOVES to tell people he's just there to collect the money, I've heard that phrase at least 4 times now.) Our CM and asst. CM felt the same way I did about this. This morning I was included in an email our CM sent to a scout executive and he replied back almost immediately. He thanked our CM for sharing it, apologized for the confusion, stated they must be in 1st grade and are too young, is out of town at the moment but asking another field director to follow up with our DD and have our DD inform the parents himself and process a refund via the scout office.

 

So again, ty all for your input. My CM thanked me as well for bringing it up. Whether its 'convenient' (or brings in more money), I think its best they wait it out too. Heck I have two boys myself that will be a couple years apart in scouts and I have no problem with that. My husband and I will work together with our jobs and them to make sure both can participate as much as possible. Hopefully these parents will understand and try the same.

[Faith]

Ok, here's the thing. There were two parents at the meeting. Both with two sons, one going into Kindergarten this Fall, one going into First grade. When I went to help them sign up the first graders, one asked if her Kindergartener could also join so they'd be together. The other parent liked the idea and said she'd like to know as well. I told her I didn't believe so (due to both being 5 until November and next March and going into K5) but I'd ask the DD (this was to cover my own butt.) He said sure, no problem, brushed it off like it was nothing. He then came over and helped them fill the stuff out. Our CM heard this and pretty much stated what I did, that he thought they were too young. The DD pretty much shushed him until the parents were gone. I then went on to explain why I asked that and he kept saying he didn't see the big deal, this would keep them together. I told him I understood that, I just thought when their fellow classmates hit first (and possibly join up), they will be a year ahead of the rest (I wasn't sure if this was frowned upon, allowed, etc.)

Haha KDD, look here now. I always see y'all using all these fancy abbreviations that I know nothing about. I am forever searching them up online to see what this is, that is, etc. Don't rain on my chance to use one myself (And as for DD, that's always me and I'm ALWAYS sober ) I replied to the thread as a whole, ty again for all the input guys!

[King Ding Dong]

Interesting situation..... I think it better for the boys to not be admitted until the 1st grade.....

 

On a parallel note, I was thinking about something just the other day when I for some reason pulled out my old BS Handbook. At B&G when our pack does it's annual crossover, my son won't technically be old enough for Boy Scouts.

Checking the modern standards, per the BSA web site

If you're a boy age 11, or at least 10 and have completed the fifth grade, or have earned the Cub Scout Arrow of Light Award, to 17 years old, the time for a real adventure is now.

At crossover time, assuming of course that my son sticks with it and wants to cross over..., he'll be IN the 5th grade and will be 10 years old. So if he doesn't earn the AOL, he'll not technically be allowed to cross over I guess...... but he was perfectly "by the book" to join as a Tiger in the 1st grade. Kind of a loop hole for sure where BSA ages don't mesh well with the school systems.....

So he's one of the youngest in the class, and one of the youngest in his den, but he fits right in with all of them..... in fact excels.

 

BUT, while his age is on the low end, his ability and maturity fall more in step I think with the school grade level. This is why I think the OP's situation with kindergarten kids is a bad fit.....

I dont see a loophole. By not earning AOL he has not demonstrated the necessary skills to earn early entry to Boy Scouts. AOL is not that hard. Super 20 is.

 

You are right though that if you get a 9 year old fifth grader, maybe because he skipped a grade, there is a problem. There are probably issues with homeschoolers as well. I am sure BSA has procedures to deal with this type of issue. Beyond entry, one must still consider the mental, emotional and physical challenges that a 8 or 9 year old would face trying to fit in with a troop of teenage boys. It is tough at 10 for many boys.

 

That said, I spoke with a UC about a fifth grader who was not in cubs but was considering scouts. He said he could attend meetings and camp with the new scouts as a "guest" until he finished fifth grade or turned 11. Would likely require a parent to attend all events as well and could be credited with advancement. Not sure if that was rouge advise or not, but makes sense.

[jc2008]

Cub Scouts is a family activity. So the younger brother should be welcome to attend Den Meetings and participate in what is appropriate for him to participate. When he gets left out of tasks that are too hard for his age group, he won't feel like he is being left out as part of the Den, but rather left out because he is too young yet and he will be able to do all this next year.

[Faith]

Interesting situation..... I think it better for the boys to not be admitted until the 1st grade.....

 

On a parallel note, I was thinking about something just the other day when I for some reason pulled out my old BS Handbook. At B&G when our pack does it's annual crossover, my son won't technically be old enough for Boy Scouts.

Checking the modern standards, per the BSA web site

If you're a boy age 11, or at least 10 and have completed the fifth grade, or have earned the Cub Scout Arrow of Light Award, to 17 years old, the time for a real adventure is now.

At crossover time, assuming of course that my son sticks with it and wants to cross over..., he'll be IN the 5th grade and will be 10 years old. So if he doesn't earn the AOL, he'll not technically be allowed to cross over I guess...... but he was perfectly "by the book" to join as a Tiger in the 1st grade. Kind of a loop hole for sure where BSA ages don't mesh well with the school systems.....

So he's one of the youngest in the class, and one of the youngest in his den, but he fits right in with all of them..... in fact excels.

 

BUT, while his age is on the low end, his ability and maturity fall more in step I think with the school grade level. This is why I think the OP's situation with kindergarten kids is a bad fit.....

 

This will apply to my oldest as well. Thanks to where his birthday falls, he won't be 11 until August (the same August he will be going into 6th grade.) So if he ranks up that February at our B&G, he will be 10 and 3 months away from completing fifth grade (I see KDD's son is also in the same boat.) I imagine lots of kids are due to what you said (conflicting with the school system.) I was in my first year of college at 17 (never skipped a grade) for the exact same reason.

[Faith]

Cub Scouts is a family activity. So the younger brother should be welcome to attend Den Meetings and participate in what is appropriate for him to participate. When he gets left out of tasks that are too hard for his age group' date=' he won't feel like he is being left out as part of the Den, but rather left out because he is too young yet and he will be able to do all this next year.[/quote']

 

I encourage this quite a bit in our den. Myself and three other moms all have two kids and each of the siblings are just barely younger than our Tigers. We allow them to participate in what they can (games, hikes, etc.) and for things they can't do, they sit by and watch. I've heard a few of the younger siblings state they can't wait to be a cub (I hope that enthusiasm continues.) Fingers crossed this will be the case here, although one of the parents (the first to ask about an exception) clearly expressed they wanted them together.