any sexual conduct by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting

[Basementdweller]

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

So your shoplifting Life scout gets caught 1 time or 10 times.........At what point is their no forgiveness and disqualifiies him????

 

Or how about the Life scout you over hear talking about sex with his girlfriend.....you council him only for him to continue??????

 

How about the life scout who is a brawler????? Fights at school over and over and over....fights at summer camp......

 

Where doe it end????

[Basementdweller]

So question to the group.......

 

In the past years on this forum the group has determined the following legal and illegal activities are NOT grounds for Eagle denial.

 

Alcohol consumption

Homosexuality, when not permitted

Smoking

Illegal Drug use

Shoplifting

Various Thefts

Criminal damaging

Criminal mystif

fire setting

Lying

Fighting

Intimidation

Bullying

Swearing

Various sexual activity on troop outings......

and now Fathering a child is on the acceptable list.

 

 

 

 

While many of the things are kids being kids........

 

Where is the line when we say enough is enough?????

 

 

The old Eagle is getting more and more tarnished.....

 

So my expectation that the boys actually live the oath and law is too high?????

 

I hear about a school yard brawl involving my scouts, I am out of line for asking for an SMC.

 

I over hear a scout bragging about things he is doing with and too his girl friend, I am out of line for asking for an SMC????

 

 

I don't believe the oath and law are similar in any way to the scout shirt......The shirt when the meeting is over is taken off and hung in the closet. In my book you simply don't shed the oath and law when you exit the meeting.

 

I have told my scouts about some of their antics and my disappointment and their thoughts about living the oath and law.

[Scouter99]

So question to the group.......

 

In the past years on this forum the group has determined the following legal and illegal activities are NOT grounds for Eagle denial.

 

Alcohol consumption

Homosexuality, when not permitted

Smoking

Illegal Drug use

Shoplifting

Various Thefts

Criminal damaging

Criminal mystif

fire setting

Lying

Fighting

Intimidation

Bullying

Swearing

Various sexual activity on troop outings......

and now Fathering a child is on the acceptable list.

 

While many of the things are kids being kids........ Where is the line when we say enough is enough????? The old Eagle is getting more and more tarnished.....

 

We live in a society where no one is responsible for their own actions, anymore. Bad grade? Bad teacher. Juvenile delinquent? Bad parents. Drugs? Bad neighborhood. Sex? Bad friends. And of course when no one is responsible for their own actions, then they're not liable for them, either. So of course a thief, pothead (even that smokes on Scout trips http://www.scouter.com/forum/working-with-kids/369176-alleged-drug-use-how-would-you-handle), bully, and underage drunk-driver can be Eagle Scouts. After all, BasementDweller, they're ~just kids~, and morality is subjective, and giving them Eagle could really ~turn him around~, and if you're not an Eagle then who are you to judge an Eagle?

 

Each Eagle will live his personal life with that intimate knowledge and whatever the rest of the world thinks is just nonsense' date=' especially if they've never attained that goal themselves. Judge a person on their own merit, not by the group they seem to be part of. [/quote']

Gotta say, Pack Saddle, that's a real gem. I don't need to be an Eagle Scout to know a drunk 15-yr-old shouldn't be one. And I don't need the Bird Study MB to know that birds of a feather flock together. When we judge a boy's actions and words, we are judging him on his own merit. We haven't got one Eagle Scout in our Committee, I guess we'll just stop holding EBoR's and pass them all since we don't have anyone ~qualified~ to do the job of examining an Eagle candidate. What a joke.

[MattR]

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

BD, I don't think we're that far apart. 10 times, no question. A brawler that keeps brawling? I'd get rid of him. Note that I said forgiveness is a two way deal. If the scout honestly works on atoning for his errors then I'm willing to forgive him. Atonement and forgiveness go hand in hand. There can't be one without the other. It's two sides to the same problem. If he only wants to make it right enough to get away with it then, yes, I agree that it's over. That's why I also said it's not easy to decide what's in another's heart.

[Basementdweller]

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

So whats the magic number????

 

2nd or 3rd occurrence??

[King Ding Dong]

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

Maybe it is similar to how many feel you get into the kingdom of God. You can be a total schmuck your whole life, but as long as you accept Jesus seconds prior to your death you are in.

 

I was never comfortable with that policy, but many influential conservatives are.

 

I would keep in mind the BSA is bestowing a rank, not sainthood.

[Basementdweller]

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

So we are back to rank advancement as a check list......

 

The spirit or soul of the scout be damned......

 

Like old Krampus johnny rottencamper .......

 

 

What happened to the BSA being the builder of men????

[packsaddle]

So question to the group.......

 

In the past years on this forum the group has determined the following legal and illegal activities are NOT grounds for Eagle denial.

 

Alcohol consumption

Homosexuality, when not permitted

Smoking

Illegal Drug use

Shoplifting

Various Thefts

Criminal damaging

Criminal mystif

fire setting

Lying

Fighting

Intimidation

Bullying

Swearing

Various sexual activity on troop outings......

and now Fathering a child is on the acceptable list.

 

While many of the things are kids being kids........ Where is the line when we say enough is enough????? The old Eagle is getting more and more tarnished.....

 

We live in a society where no one is responsible for their own actions, anymore. Bad grade? Bad teacher. Juvenile delinquent? Bad parents. Drugs? Bad neighborhood. Sex? Bad friends. And of course when no one is responsible for their own actions, then they're not liable for them, either. So of course a thief, pothead (even that smokes on Scout trips http://www.scouter.com/forum/working-with-kids/369176-alleged-drug-use-how-would-you-handle), bully, and underage drunk-driver can be Eagle Scouts. After all, BasementDweller, they're ~just kids~, and morality is subjective, and giving them Eagle could really ~turn him around~, and if you're not an Eagle then who are you to judge an Eagle?

 

Each Eagle will live his personal life with that intimate knowledge and whatever the rest of the world thinks is just nonsense' date=' especially if they've never attained that goal themselves. Judge a person on their own merit, not by the group they seem to be part of. [/quote']

Gotta say, Pack Saddle, that's a real gem. I don't need to be an Eagle Scout to know a drunk 15-yr-old shouldn't be one. And I don't need the Bird Study MB to know that birds of a feather flock together. When we judge a boy's actions and words, we are judging him on his own merit. We haven't got one Eagle Scout in our Committee, I guess we'll just stop holding EBoR's and pass them all since we don't have anyone ~qualified~ to do the job of examining an Eagle candidate. What a joke.

I was commenting on judging groups of people as opposed to individuals, not who should be on an EBOR.

 

In the case of the EBOR the boy has not yet attained the rank of Eagle - not addressed by my comment. My comment was about a tendency for some of us to characterize Eagles as a group (they are already Eagles) as opposed to the individual boys who compose the group. Is this really such a difficult concept for you?

 

Actually it goes deeper than that. The individual boy has made his individual decisions, taken his individual actions, done his individual work, made his individual accomplishments...and as a result, he will have gained his individual experience, knowledge, understanding, and individual sense of accomplishment. He, himself, is the only person who truly KNOWS what all that means to him. How is his personal growth and accomplishment diminished if, for example, some other Eagle steals a DVD player or something? It isn't diminished for him personally. But I do understand that shallow and thoughtless persons might see the thief and then attempt to diminish ALL Eagles as a result. They are free to be as shallow and thoughtless as they want.

[BS-87]

So question to the group.......

 

In the past years on this forum the group has determined the following legal and illegal activities are NOT grounds for Eagle denial.

 

Alcohol consumption

Homosexuality, when not permitted

Smoking

Illegal Drug use

Shoplifting

Various Thefts

Criminal damaging

Criminal mystif

fire setting

Lying

Fighting

Intimidation

Bullying

Swearing

Various sexual activity on troop outings......

and now Fathering a child is on the acceptable list.

 

While many of the things are kids being kids........

 

Where is the line when we say enough is enough?????

 

The old Eagle is getting more and more tarnished.....

 

 

 

Here's how to handle a Scout who is guilty any or many of the listed transgressions. Is he legitimately remorseful? Has he changed his life as a result of the transgression which put him contrary to the Scout spirit? Has he actively worked to help others avoid making the same mistakes, or discontinue their unScoutlike behavior; especially those who he participated in the problem behavior with?

 

If he hasn't made a marked effort to get back on a track of living the Scout Oath and Law, it's not unreasonable to deny his Eagle Rank.

 

The only thing the new membership policy does is state that a homosexual Scout doesn't have to apologize for existing. And, as any other Scout, he only need feel remorseful for participating in sexual conduct as any Scout of any orientation should be and could be removed from Scouting for.

 

 

[Eagledad]

As a SM, I always mentored scouts to consider the consequenses of their decisions in the bigger picture of being a servant of the oath and law and to react accordingly. 99 times out of 100 the scouts reacted with favorable choices, at least to me. But we had a mentally retarded 16 year old scout who was very close to earning his Eagle aggressively point a knife at another scout, and I just couldn't get him to see the wrong of his action. Since I wasn't trained as counselor for the mentally handicapped, I always invited the Scout's father to observe my dicussions with his son. He is an Eagle and a Silver Beaver, so he fully understands the process and I will never forget the deep sorrow I saw in his face when he realized that his son would not earn the Eagle. I think 99 times out of 100, young adults will do the right thing if they are presented with the consequenses of their actions in the bigger picture, but there will always be that one who just won't get it. Should the 99 be judged the same as the one? Each SM is different in the style of building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. How do we judge one style over the other? I wish deciding who wins and who looses was so easy, but when we see the blood, sweat and tears as a scout strives to develop a noble character, things are not a clear, at all. Just like our own lives, scouts have complicated lives as well. The curse of a SM is feeling the pain of showing each scout their reality. The reward is watching them grow.

[packsaddle]

As a SM, I always mentored scouts to consider the consequenses of their decisions in the bigger picture of being a servant of the oath and law and to react accordingly. 99 times out of 100 the scouts reacted with favorable choices, at least to me. But we had a mentally retarded 16 year old scout who was very close to earning his Eagle aggressively point a knife at another scout, and I just couldn't get him to see the wrong of his action. Since I wasn't trained as counselor for the mentally handicapped, I always invited the Scout's father to observe my dicussions with his son. He is an Eagle and a Silver Beaver, so he fully understands the process and I will never forget the deep sorrow I saw in his face when he realized that his son would not earn the Eagle. I think 99 times out of 100, young adults will do the right thing if they are presented with the consequenses of their actions in the bigger picture, but there will always be that one who just won't get it. Should the 99 be judged the same as the one? Each SM is different in the style of building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. How do we judge one style over the other? I wish deciding who wins and who looses was so easy, but when we see the blood, sweat and tears as a scout strives to develop a noble character, things are not a clear, at all. Just like our own lives, scouts have complicated lives as well. The curse of a SM is feeling the pain of showing each scout their reality. The reward is watching them grow.

Eagledad, I agree.

[Basementdweller]

Shallow fair enough.... But reading the antics going on here and other forums.....leaves a fellow to ponder what being a eagle really is about?????

[Eagledad]

Shallow fair enough.... But reading the antics going on here and other forums.....leaves a fellow to ponder what being a eagle really is about?????

Your'e new SM, what are your ponderings?

Barry

[MattR]

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

BD, for me there is no magic number. It is all about the spirit or soul of the scout. I can't reduce one's character to a simple formula as it depends on the person. If a scout has a history of really helping out his troop, is enthusiastic, is a great leader, and then one day gets caught shoplifting, I suspect when the SM talks to him he'd feel like crap. If the SM then asks him what the right thing to do is he'd repay his debt several times over and do it cheerfully. If it happens again, which I doubt, it would likely be a case of fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. For the scout that's always brawling, maybe the shoplifting is the final straw.

 

I dislike the checklist aspect of Eagle (other than the Eagle project). To me it's all about attitude and what they do. Builder of men? Absolutely! People can learn a lot from their mistakes. Those that do are Eagle material.

 

KDD, I'm not saying that at all. In my book, one's character is defined by one's deeds much more than one's thoughts. If the scout is generally a great kid but slips up once, it's a great learning opportunity, not a reason to chuck him. Atoning for your mistakes is much harder than not making mistakes and shows a lot of character.

 

I still don't think we're that far apart.

[King Ding Dong]

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

MattR, I agree with you. Because someone messes up and repeatedly does not make them a bad person. I have seen kids really turn themselves around and I believe more in where they are going than where they have been. I think looking at the past six months or so should weigh heavily in any advancement decision.