any sexual conduct by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting

[AZOwl]

Maybe I'm reading too much into the policy statement... BUT.... I took it to mean that sexual conduct of ANY TYPE is not condoned in or around or on ANY scouting activity. A married couple in a tent on a campout (whether adult leaders or married ventures... wow married yung, but whatever) should be able to keep their private life private around scouts - PERIOD. I don't even show much affection other than a hug and a quick peck on the cheek for the Mrs. when I'm in uniform. Its not the place for it.

 

So far in pre-marital sex (hetro or homo) among teenaged boys... I'm sure it happens given the chance. As long as its not happening at a scout meeting or campout - then really not my business. I guess I've never had to confront a lad who's knocked up his girlfriend right before his Eagle BoR... guess we'll cross that bridge if / when it occurs and IF the committee has knowledge of the issue. Not sure how I'd handle that issue, but I know one thing.... the lad not getting his Eagle award is the LEAST of his worries at that point in life !

 

I do (hopefully) project to the youth that dating and relationships are serious things and that mutual RESPECT and RESPONSIBILITY is very important with regards to dealing with the opposite sex (guess that will include the same sex now as of Jan '14). I also talk with them to consider the ramifications of an unintended pregnancy on their and their partner's future has... college, very hard with a baby.... forget dances and prom and football.... you'll be changing diapers, etc...

 

dean

My thoughts are simple...If I can't have sex on a campout or an activity with the Mrs...Then they shouldn't be having sex with anyone either.

 

We also just covered the Family Life MB in our weekly meetings. And while my unit is wildly diverse along religious lines, and I had to tiptoe through the parts about what it means to be a man, and a father, I definitely got the point across about sex being intended for reproduction, and that if they aren't ready to be a dad, then they should wait, because the only 100% foolproof method is not to do it.

 

Having said that, do I really think that they will wait? Probably not, most don't...But if I can get them to postpone it even once, or remember to think with the head on their shoulders about it, then it was worth it.

[Khaliela]

A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Nowhere in there am I seeing the word abstinent . . .

Not so fast qwazes;

Teen birth rates are higher in red states and for Christians in general. Christian teens are more likely to engage in risky behaviors, less likely to use contraception when they do have sex, and Christians are more likely to divorce. I've heard a lot of pastors tout the opposite, but when you look at the data from the Centers for Disease Control and the census bureau it's a whole different story.

 

Teen birth rate by state:

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/national-data/NBR-teens-15-19.aspx

 

The gap between pledgers and nonpledgers for high-risk behavior was statistically significant, with 2% of virgins who did not pledge reporting engaging in anal or oral sex, compared with 13% of those who did pledge. According to Bruckner, the pledgers' increased likelihood of substituting oral or anal sex for vaginal intercourse puts them at risk of contracting STDs, according to Bruckner. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/21606.php

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf

[qwazse]

A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Nowhere in there am I seeing the word abstinent . . .

If you're tryin' to tell me I can't trust Christians as far as I can throw 'em, I'm with you on that one! For that and other reasons, I intentionally steered my kids away from pledge campaigns. Abstinence vows in the context of evangelical Christianity is an abstract ideal at best, a diabolical hypocrisy at worst.

 

Keep in mind that the birth rate disparity by state may be partially offset by abortion rates. But the availability and reliability of the latter is questionable. So we may be talking about a values choice.

 

Also note that your CDC reference indicates that the most stable marriages are the ones where first birth was 8+ months after marriage. Now, it may be that those are all folks who use condoms until the license is signed, but logic dictates that this group is comprised of all of those who did not initiate sexual activity until after marriage.

 

Abstinence (irregardless of religion) remains the "cleanest" strategy. It is also seems to be the hardest to implement -- especially among protestants. So sure, the "discipline of latex" is a necessary fallback, and it is possible to build "safety nets" (e.g. HPC vaccine) that take up some slack. Maybe it is easier to promote that.

 

However; ease of use, in itself, is not what defines the morality of a particular choice.

[King Ding Dong]

I think the movement could perform best if we treat the Scout Law as aspirational - that we strive to live a person that is trustworthy......etc. This thread alarms me because I see that the Scout law is being used to punish, ban or remove those among us who have failed in this aspiration. Refusing to award an Eagle rank simply because a boy has fathered a child is punitive behavior, which is contrary to the goals of the movement. If you removed all the boys who took a smoke of a cigarette, a drink of alcohol or a kissed another person from the program, the crickets would be the only sound we'd hear at Scout Meetings. Boys need to hear the message of Scouting (become someone who is trustworthy, etc.) over and over in their lives so they can remember this message when in a darker moment they confront challenges in their daily lives. I teach the values of Scouting to boys so that they can overcome their base animalistic impulses, their periods of doubt and indecision, their weaknesses of every sort that defines us ALL as human.

Who among you can stand up and declare they have always lived the scout law and oath without fail ?

[DeanRx]

So far in pre-marital sex (hetro or homo) among teenaged boys... I'm sure it happens given the chance. As long as its not happening at a scout meeting or campout - then really not my business.

Curious position from my perspective. If a scout was caught cheating on tests in high school would you consider that none of your business or is it a reflection on his trustworthiness? What if he was hazing other youth on a HS sports team? Not in scouting so no worry about friendly, courteous, kind. Smoking cigarettes and yelling obscenities at a village holiday gathering with young children around? No biggie, it's not a camp out, clean mind and strong body only count in the woods. Character is what happens when nobody is looking. Isn't that what we're trying to teach?

 

Yeah DC, I don't think our line of thought is too far apart on this issue. We are teaching character, I just don't see my role as the "character" police outside of a scouiting event. If an infraction happens at school or in the village square and I am present to witness it, then yes... I'll call my scouts out on it. However, I'm not going to hold up rank advancement or kick a kid out of a unit on hersay about something he may or may not have done outside of a scouting activity. The only exception I can think of to this would be if he is convicted of a crime. If he is cheating on a test or bullying a kid on a HS sports team... that's the school's job to police, IMHO.

 

I've always viewed my job as a techer. Teach them to make a good choice and then allow them to exercise that choice. I will correct if I am aware of an issue. I highly doubt I'll ever have first hand knowledge of a scout's sex life, unless its acting out on a campout. The only other time I can think of is if he knocks a girl up or something like that... then there is "evidence" so to speak. As I stated before, Hope I never have to face that senerio, but we'll cross the bridge if / when the time comes.

[walk in the woods]

So far in pre-marital sex (hetro or homo) among teenaged boys... I'm sure it happens given the chance. As long as its not happening at a scout meeting or campout - then really not my business.

Curious position from my perspective. If a scout was caught cheating on tests in high school would you consider that none of your business or is it a reflection on his trustworthiness? What if he was hazing other youth on a HS sports team? Not in scouting so no worry about friendly, courteous, kind. Smoking cigarettes and yelling obscenities at a village holiday gathering with young children around? No biggie, it's not a camp out, clean mind and strong body only count in the woods. Character is what happens when nobody is looking. Isn't that what we're trying to teach?

 

@Dean, you and me both brother...

[Basementdweller]

A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Nowhere in there am I seeing the word abstinent . . .

Gee Khaliela

 

That higher birthrate wouldn't have anything to do with the fact the nations poor don't have access to birth control the same as the wealthy.....

 

Poor kids are more often left at home alone between end of school and the time parents get home from work...

 

I think the rates for teenage intercourse are the same for rich and poor......the difference is one can afford or is educated to take precautions the other is not.....

 

Local wealthy school made the news with many student getting ejected from the prom for having sex on the dance floor.......The only rules the dance was the girls hands could not be on the floor and had to be above her knees when dancing........I can't imagine what was going on to make that a required rule.

[Basementdweller]

So have any of you read page 120 of the scout handbook????

[Scouter99]

A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Nowhere in there am I seeing the word abstinent . . .

Not so fast qwazes;

Teen birth rates are higher in red states and for Christians in general. Christian teens are more likely to engage in risky behaviors, less likely to use contraception when they do have sex, and Christians are more likely to divorce. I've heard a lot of pastors tout the opposite, but when you look at the data from the Centers for Disease Control and the census bureau it's a whole different story.

Teen birth rate by state:

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/n...ens-15-19.aspx

 

The gap between pledgers and nonpledgers for high-risk behavior was statistically significant, with 2% of virgins who did not pledge reporting engaging in anal or oral sex, compared with 13% of those who did pledge. According to Bruckner, the pledgers' increased likelihood of substituting oral or anal sex for vaginal intercourse puts them at risk of contracting STDs, according to Bruckner. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/21606.php

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf

 

Not so fast, yourself.

First of all, "red state/blue state" is a blunt instrument that really serves no use in making broad generalizations across time or demographics. Many states with republican governors vote for democrat presidents and vice versa. Many states alternate republican and democratic administrations with almost every cycle. "Christian" is also almost useless for categorizing people. Christianity, unlike Judaism or Islam, is not inherited. Christianity is, in essence, a mystery cult into which people are initiated then advance. Now, how many people do you know who simply tell you they're a Christian because that's what their parents were, or because when they can be bothered they go to a Christian church? I once knew a kid who said he was a Christian because he's white, and as silly as it was to hear it out loud, that's exactly how people think about religion. The fact of the matter is that, statistically, 75% of the teens in the country are categorized as "Christians" whether they're in a red or blue state, and whether they birthed their child or aborted it, and whether they abstained, had vaginal sex, or had oral sex.

Religiosity--engagement in the religion--tells us what we want to know about the relationship between religion and behavior.

 

However, accepting your blunt red/blue instrument, and using the 2012 Presidential election to categorize a state as red or blue, let's look at the matter:

While it is true that red states have the highest teen birth rates, the decline in births between 1991 and 2010 is a 50/50 split between red and blue states in the top 10. In the top 20, there are more red than blue (12 to 8).

Just as telling as any of this, however, are abortion stats, where blue states reign supreme, dominating the top 20 18-to-2. These stats are available from the Guttmacher Institute: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends.pdf

Despite its "lbue-ness" Washington, D.C. not only had the highest birth rate in the nation in 1991 (110 per 1000), it also had the highest abortion rate in the nation with 81/1000. In fact, the Red teens of DC aborted more 1.5 times more babies than the blue teens birthed in Mississippi (the state with the highest 2010 birth rate). I don't exactly consider dumping the human product of bad sexual decisions into bio-hazard bins to be incinerated like trash to be a better solution than birth.

 

What tells us anything about all of this is not birth rates or abortion rates--those only tell us how the teens dealt with their bad choice. I dare say I'm damned proud that "red" teens are birthing the babies rather than killing them.

What you want are pregnancy rates, which are in the Guttmacher numbers I linked.

[King Ding Dong]

So have any of you read page 120 of the scout handbook????

Yes. And your point ?

[Basementdweller]

I think the movement could perform best if we treat the Scout Law as aspirational - that we strive to live a person that is trustworthy......etc. This thread alarms me because I see that the Scout law is being used to punish, ban or remove those among us who have failed in this aspiration. Refusing to award an Eagle rank simply because a boy has fathered a child is punitive behavior, which is contrary to the goals of the movement. If you removed all the boys who took a smoke of a cigarette, a drink of alcohol or a kissed another person from the program, the crickets would be the only sound we'd hear at Scout Meetings. Boys need to hear the message of Scouting (become someone who is trustworthy, etc.) over and over in their lives so they can remember this message when in a darker moment they confront challenges in their daily lives. I teach the values of Scouting to boys so that they can overcome their base animalistic impulses, their periods of doubt and indecision, their weaknesses of every sort that defines us ALL as human.

The Parents need a SMC.

 

What responsible parent would let their teenage son who is a new father continue in scouting??

 

To my mind, fathering or mothering a child immediately makes you an adult......No passing go, no more partys no more sports, no more hanging out on friday night.

No more scouting.....

 

 

So earning an Eagle isn't a possibility.

[Basementdweller]

So question to the group.......

 

In the past years on this forum the group has determined the following legal and illegal activities are NOT grounds for Eagle denial.

 

Alcohol consumption

Homosexuality, when not permitted

Smoking

Illegal Drug use

Shoplifting

Various Thefts

Criminal damaging

Criminal mystif

fire setting

Lying

Fighting

Intimidation

Bullying

Swearing

Various sexual activity on troop outings......

and now Fathering a child is on the acceptable list.

 

 

 

 

While many of the things are kids being kids........

 

Where is the line when we say enough is enough?????

 

 

The old Eagle is getting more and more tarnished.....

 

 

[MattR]

BD, I think you've just asked one of the oldest questions of mankind. And maybe that came right after the oldest profession started going. You're asking about forgiveness. I'd forgive a shoplifter over someone that swears, if the shoplifter honestly realized his mistake and the swearer didn't. Without forgiveness we're all self-righteous blow-hards that won't admit we all make mistakes. Forgiveness is about moving forward and healing wounds. It's also not easy if you're the recipient of the bad behavior. At the same time, forgiving someone that doesn't see what they've done as a mistake is not helping anything. How you divine the difference between honesty and BS is the age old hard part.

 

As far as tarnishing the Eagle is concerned, maybe not. Real repentance and real forgiveness would indicate real growth.

 

I will add one thing about a scout having a kid though, he probably doesn't have time for an Eagle project. So you're right, it's time to grow up.

[packsaddle]

So question to the group.......

 

In the past years on this forum the group has determined the following legal and illegal activities are NOT grounds for Eagle denial.

 

Alcohol consumption

Homosexuality, when not permitted

Smoking

Illegal Drug use

Shoplifting

Various Thefts

Criminal damaging

Criminal mystif

fire setting

Lying

Fighting

Intimidation

Bullying

Swearing

Various sexual activity on troop outings......

and now Fathering a child is on the acceptable list.

 

 

 

 

While many of the things are kids being kids........

 

Where is the line when we say enough is enough?????

 

 

The old Eagle is getting more and more tarnished.....

 

I think you're falling into the deception that the 'character' that others ascribe to Eagle recipients as a group somehow equates to the actual personal knowledge, growth, and benefit that an individual Eagle recipient receives personally. I support a view of the Eagle as an individual quest and accomplishment. The group didn't do it. The individual did. Each Eagle will live his personal life with that intimate knowledge and whatever the rest of the world thinks is just nonsense, especially if they've never attained that goal themselves. Judge a person on their own merit, not by the group they seem to be part of.

[Eagledad]

So question to the group.......

 

In the past years on this forum the group has determined the following legal and illegal activities are NOT grounds for Eagle denial.

 

Alcohol consumption

Homosexuality, when not permitted

Smoking

Illegal Drug use

Shoplifting

Various Thefts

Criminal damaging

Criminal mystif

fire setting

Lying

Fighting

Intimidation

Bullying

Swearing

Various sexual activity on troop outings......

and now Fathering a child is on the acceptable list.

 

 

 

 

While many of the things are kids being kids........

 

Where is the line when we say enough is enough?????

 

 

The old Eagle is getting more and more tarnished.....

 

While I agree to a lot of what Pack says, a servant of the community can't be oblivious to it's expected standards of being a good citizen. That would be selfserving, which is not a trait of the noble Eagle. That being said, I've been the SM of several hundred scouts. One of my very best scouts in both character and skills found himself a father at age 16 just after completing his Eagle project. That scout lives close and we still see each other from time to time because he is my sons best friend. He graduated Oklahoma State in four years with two degrees in Engineering and is now the father of three kids. He is also the Cub Master of the same Pack that I Cub Mastered him. Packsaddle is right, character isn't so much in not stumbling, but how we handle ourselves after we stumble.