any sexual conduct by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting

[NJCubScouter]

To me, this comment is rather obnoxious; for comparison, supposed the BSA excluded black kids, and just changed it to admit them, but added a memo reminding everyone that stealing is contrary to the virtues of scouting. Hey, no thanks for the implication....

I agree Merlyn, but if the worst thing that came out of this process was an obnoxious and unnecessary statement, I would have said that on the whole, the result was positive. But it's NOT the worst thing, in my opinion. The worst thing is that the policy on openly gay adult leaders has remained what it was, and in my view that prevents this outcome from really being a positive one. It could be the "first step" toward a positive result, as Terry says in the other thread, and as my council said in their official statement on the subject (supporting the resolution on youth members but stating that work should continue on changing the policy for adults.)

 

 

 

As for me personally, I'm not sure how many more "steps" I am in for, especially now that I am only making decisions for my self, with all of my children being adults. But we'll see.

 

 

 

As for how inappropriate behavior among troop or crew members (youth and/or adult) should be handled, I don't think anything has changed. It has nothing to do with whether the individuals in question are gay or straight.

[BS-87]

More importantly' date=' I ask youth to understand what their religion says about the matter, and live accordingly.[/quote']

 

That's probably all that matters. Good policy!

 

Of course sexual activity at scouting events is verboten. But if we overhear talk about some 16-17 yo scout making out with his girlfriend' date=' our we expected to toss him? I think the BSA should stop being trying to be the sex police.[/quote']

 

I think if we have the policy that a 16-17 yr old Scout talking about making out with his girlfriend is un-Scoutlike and sets a bad example, the first two times is probably worth some Scoutmaster counseling on why it's un-Scoutlike to be talking about that kind of thing at a Scout meeting or campout. If it continues, there should be no question that he's behaving in a way that is distracting from the other boy's ability to enjoy Scouting as intended and must be removed.

 

While we may feel it's innocuous, the fact of the matter is that National feels sexuality as a subject in Scouting is not innocuous.

[Sentinel947]

To me, this comment is rather obnoxious; for comparison, supposed the BSA excluded black kids, and just changed it to admit them, but added a memo reminding everyone that stealing is contrary to the virtues of scouting. Hey, no thanks for the implication....

As far as I know, Scouts shouldn't be having sex has always been a position of the BSA. Regardless of whether or not the decision is religious in nature, or just good ole common sense, young people can really destroy their lives or be forced to make hard decisions by engaging in sex before they are ready.

 

 

 

With my unit, if I know about Scouts are engaging in that kind of conduct outside of Scouts, fine, they shouldn't be regaling all the other Scouts with the stories about their sexual activities.

 

 

 

I don't think we need to look at that statement as being some sort of action statement that BSA volunteers need to become the Sex police. I think alot of people in here are taking that statement a little bit too seriously.

 

 

 

Sorry Merlyn, my comment is aimed at the whole thread, I just started replying to you, and then I started to ramble. =P

 

 

 

Sentinel947

[Sentinel947]

It's not that I don't care, I just don't think it's my business or my job. Seems like that's what parents are for.

 

How would you suggest going about enforcing this?

As I replied below, I don't think this is an enforcing sort of action statement. I'm going to proceed the same way I always have, which is to not really address the topic of sex. If a Scout is telling all the other Scouts about it, I'll tell him to cut it out. That's about as far as I feel "obligated" to go.

 

 

 

Sentinel947

[skeptic]

Come on people; let's just allow people to respond as needed in their own units, hopefully using common sense and not blowing things out of proportion. It appears to me that some individuals simply have to have "chicken little" responses. It is a step in the right direction. Soon enough the secondary issues will have to come to a head. If you care about the actual program, then just put your efforts into working it and please stop making everything into a political football.

[walk in the woods]

So far in pre-marital sex (hetro or homo) among teenaged boys... I'm sure it happens given the chance. As long as its not happening at a scout meeting or campout - then really not my business.

Curious position from my perspective. If a scout was caught cheating on tests in high school would you consider that none of your business or is it a reflection on his trustworthiness? What if he was hazing other youth on a HS sports team? Not in scouting so no worry about friendly, courteous, kind. Smoking cigarettes and yelling obscenities at a village holiday gathering with young children around? No biggie, it's not a camp out, clean mind and strong body only count in the woods. Character is what happens when nobody is looking. Isn't that what we're trying to teach?

 

 

[Khaliela]

A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Nowhere in there am I seeing the word abstinent . . .

[Khaliela]

So far in pre-marital sex (hetro or homo) among teenaged boys... I'm sure it happens given the chance. As long as its not happening at a scout meeting or campout - then really not my business.

Curious position from my perspective. If a scout was caught cheating on tests in high school would you consider that none of your business or is it a reflection on his trustworthiness? What if he was hazing other youth on a HS sports team? Not in scouting so no worry about friendly, courteous, kind. Smoking cigarettes and yelling obscenities at a village holiday gathering with young children around? No biggie, it's not a camp out, clean mind and strong body only count in the woods. Character is what happens when nobody is looking. Isn't that what we're trying to teach?

 

A scout having sex is not cheating unless he is having sex with someone other than his/her BF/GF. Kids have sex . . . always have . . . always will. In some states the age of consent is as low as 14 so they generally aren't breaking any laws. Would we rather they didn't have sex for a whole host of reason? Sure. But the point is we can't control everything they do, nor should we try. Some lessons need to be learned on their own.

[qwazse]

A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Nowhere in there am I seeing the word abstinent . . .

I think you wrote it down twelve times, but let me jus point out four ...

Trustworthy: can be trusted not to gawk after someone else's spouse. If ya ain't wed to it, it ain't yours.

Loyal: faithful to own spouse. You don't know who that is until the knot's tied.

....

Clean: comports oneself in a disease free manner. Thinks in a way that doesn't demean sex.

Reverent: approaches sexuality as a gift from the creator, to be used in accordance with religious conviction.

[packsaddle]

So far in pre-marital sex (hetro or homo) among teenaged boys... I'm sure it happens given the chance. As long as its not happening at a scout meeting or campout - then really not my business.

Curious position from my perspective. If a scout was caught cheating on tests in high school would you consider that none of your business or is it a reflection on his trustworthiness? What if he was hazing other youth on a HS sports team? Not in scouting so no worry about friendly, courteous, kind. Smoking cigarettes and yelling obscenities at a village holiday gathering with young children around? No biggie, it's not a camp out, clean mind and strong body only count in the woods. Character is what happens when nobody is looking. Isn't that what we're trying to teach?

 

I would caution that while some lessons are GOING to be learned on their own, those are not necessarily lessons they NEED to learn on their own. In the case of sexuality, I would hope that most of the lessons can be learned from the mistakes OTHER people have made, lol.

[Khaliela]

So far in pre-marital sex (hetro or homo) among teenaged boys... I'm sure it happens given the chance. As long as its not happening at a scout meeting or campout - then really not my business.

Curious position from my perspective. If a scout was caught cheating on tests in high school would you consider that none of your business or is it a reflection on his trustworthiness? What if he was hazing other youth on a HS sports team? Not in scouting so no worry about friendly, courteous, kind. Smoking cigarettes and yelling obscenities at a village holiday gathering with young children around? No biggie, it's not a camp out, clean mind and strong body only count in the woods. Character is what happens when nobody is looking. Isn't that what we're trying to teach?

 

Packsaddle:

I have two teen boys. Would I rather they didn't have sex? Absolutly. Have we had discussions about the consequences of having sex? You Bet. But to deny a kid rank advancement because he made a mistake is absolutly wrong. He isn't cheating on anything . . . It's more like blowing off a test and by not studying. Would we deny them rank advancement because they failed French? Of Course not. We can tell them to study until we're blue in the face, but some lessons must be learned on their own. Sometimes the best thing you can do for a kid is to let them fail and love them anyway.

[Khaliela]

A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Nowhere in there am I seeing the word abstinent . . .

Trustworthy: I can trust that when my son has sex he will use protection and respect his partner.

 

Loyal: Loving someone is not a breach of Loyalty. Neither is having sex for the sheer joy of sex. There is no shame in not remaining abstinent until married; and frankly I question the sanity of those who push that agenda.

 

Clean: Wearing a condom can insure that he is disease free.

 

Reverent: My religion believes that sex is a wonderful gift. In fact our creation myth involves a sexual interlude that last for 9 days culminating in a giant orgasm. Contrary to the Christian view, we view sex as the "Original Blessing" not the "Original Sin." Our gods would not be offended if he partook of the blessing of sex while under 18.

 

Sex is a serious topic and we cannot presume to fit everyone in the same box. Each must do what is right for them and even then we will make mistakes along the way. We require them to follow the Scout Law to the best of their ability. (BTW--sex has friendly, courteous, kind, and cheerful written all over it! LOL)

[walk in the woods]

So far in pre-marital sex (hetro or homo) among teenaged boys... I'm sure it happens given the chance. As long as its not happening at a scout meeting or campout - then really not my business.

Curious position from my perspective. If a scout was caught cheating on tests in high school would you consider that none of your business or is it a reflection on his trustworthiness? What if he was hazing other youth on a HS sports team? Not in scouting so no worry about friendly, courteous, kind. Smoking cigarettes and yelling obscenities at a village holiday gathering with young children around? No biggie, it's not a camp out, clean mind and strong body only count in the woods. Character is what happens when nobody is looking. Isn't that what we're trying to teach?

 

Uh, Khaliela, I said cheating on tests in references to their trustworthiness, nothing about sex. The point of my post was to suggest that it's a mistake for scout leaders to say if something doesn't happen in a scout event it's not our concern. Our job as scout leaders is to "prepare young people to make moral and ethical decisions throughout their lifetimes." That goes beyond scout meetings and activities. Just my $0.02.

[qwazse]

A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

 

Nowhere in there am I seeing the word abstinent . . .

Your definition of "insuring" clean is betrayed by the many folks I know who we're brought in on a busted rubber!

 

Orthodox Chrisitian teaching also puts sex as a gift from God. "Be fruitful and multiply" was our first command. Original sin does not involve sex. It has to do with the human inclination to disdain what God has given and instead lust after what God has yet to give.

 

There's no agenda in pushing abstinence until marriage. It leads to safest sex, healthiest families, more responsible fathers, stable economies in indigent areas. (It did tick off 18th century sailors who Charles Darwin heard complaining that, thanks to missionaries, they could no longer exploit Polynesian women "for love nor money.")

 

All that said, I have never suggested that any sexually active youth I knew be removed from scouting. We do want youth being up-front with their parents about these things. If that's happening, then I'll save my "Clash of Orthodoxies" lectures until a youth asks my opinion on these matters. Otherwise, I'm just a guy hiking you into bear country.

[codger]

I think the movement could perform best if we treat the Scout Law as aspirational - that we strive to live a person that is trustworthy......etc. This thread alarms me because I see that the Scout law is being used to punish, ban or remove those among us who have failed in this aspiration. Refusing to award an Eagle rank simply because a boy has fathered a child is punitive behavior, which is contrary to the goals of the movement. If you removed all the boys who took a smoke of a cigarette, a drink of alcohol or a kissed another person from the program, the crickets would be the only sound we'd hear at Scout Meetings. Boys need to hear the message of Scouting (become someone who is trustworthy, etc.) over and over in their lives so they can remember this message when in a darker moment they confront challenges in their daily lives. I teach the values of Scouting to boys so that they can overcome their base animalistic impulses, their periods of doubt and indecision, their weaknesses of every sort that defines us ALL as human.