Popcorn - Is it finally too expensive?

[Backpacker]

Kamakian has taken us to other areas of debate in dealings with councils, but lets stay on popcorn.

 

Yes popcorn is not my favorite fundraiser, it is too expensive, it always has been and will be, but the reason people buy it is to support scouting, not for the value of the product. It is just like contributing to PBS you pledge a $100 and get a $15 cd, but people do it to keep the station on the air, the same thing with scouting the public loves to see cub and boy scouts in uniform selling anything, for nostalgic or other reasons. Are there other products out there that might be better, maybe but they have to be researched and presented to council in a professional manner if you want the SE to listen. Then the next step can be taken, developing a campaign and launching a trial run. To me popcorn is a way to help a unit raise some money for camp, et. al, not only to support the council.

 

If you want to compete with Walmart it just isn't going to happen. Find new and creative marketing methods, my crew does a popcorn festival in a busy local park every year and they sell a lot of popcorn, we made enough from all our fund raisers to go to the sea scout base in Florida this summer. Remember you don't have to sell it if you don't want to.

 

[Bob White]

So why do so many units sell popcorn and do it so well?

 

What do you suppose they're up to?

[packsaddle]

Hey, I buy it even though I don't like it (the cats don't even think it makes good cat litter). But as Rush says, "it's all about money". Scoutldr is correct, the question of popcorn, or fundraising in general, leads to the way the funds are spent/allocated and the efficiency of the organization. The path of the money leads us to every element of the organization.

 

BSA seems to be unfocused. It has elements of a charity and elements of a large business. I think bringing BSA into more of a market-oriented, competitive mode would provide focus and potentially solve many of these problems. It is an admittedly conservative approach, as if there's something wrong with that. But I see many benefits to it, not the least of which is greater latitude for local options and greater efficiency in the organization. If BSA steps up to the plate on this, it could even open more opportunities for the boys. It's worth a try.

[madkins007]

" So why do so many units sell popcorn and do it so well?

 

What do you suppose they're up to? "

 

They have found large numbers of people willing to buy popcorn from young people in uniforms (or parents in the office) at prices higher than the stores because they are supporting a cause- would be my guess. That's what the guys in my units did to make the sales they made, at least.

 

 

 

Personally, I think popcorn is the result of 'committee' think- a rather bland, 'safe' program with flaws that are covered up basically by brute force rather than an innovate product or program that cannot be bought at Wal-Mart for a fraction of the price.

 

One thing the GS cookies has in its favor is that you cannot buy some of the best flavors locally, period. At least Trail's End could offer us some options that you CAN'T buy at Wally World!

[Bob White]

"BRUTE FORCE"

 

You can't possibly be serious.

 

"Oh dear lord Ethel there's a 9 year old at the door in a Cub uniform, hide the valuables. Whatever you do don't say no to him, you know how vicious they can be. I know... smile and buy something from him and maybe he won't hurt us or the children."

 

You guys slay me. It really kills you that so many units and councils do just fine with popcorn sales.

 

In fact I can show you a site where a sampling of Popcorn sales taken from a variety of council locations across the country and a cross section of population densities.

 

22 councils are sampled, that is about 7% sampling from across the expanse of the BSA. Any guesses as to how much was raised in 2004 in popcorn sales just in these 22 random councils?????

 

 

 

 

$10,610,103.00

 

No lets extrapolate that into an approximate total of what might be the national figure.

 

It would be approximately $151,512,270.00

 

Thats one hundred and fifty one MILLION dollars in gross sales.

 

Thats over 50 MILLION DOLLARS in unit profits. $50,000,000.

 

And another 50 million to the independent councils and $0 to the national office.

 

That there is a bunch of hoagies gentleman.

 

How you can even complain about something as successfull as popcorn only proves my origial point. The only folks who complain are the ones who don't sell or who don't know how to did it successfully, or just like to complain about the BSA.

 

The website I am going to send you to also has the results of some market analyis done by Trails End. It will rebut every theory the nay-ayers have offered in this thread.

 

I am convinced that even if the Councils found a way to teach you how to spit gold you would find some reason to complain about it.

 

 

http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?id=4458

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Interesting statistics. And very informative.

 

It seems the organization, not the product is the selling point. Imagine how great the sales would be if there was a better product!

 

If people spend an average of $15 for a fund raiser, my unit could sell these people 3 hoagies!

 

Also noticed an inconsistency in the numbers. I am assuming (don't like doing that) that the 2004 Sales on page 3 are for the WA, TACOMA council. If so, there is a discrepancy in the gross sales from page 3 to page 4. Page 4 is roughly $14,000 higher.

 

Also, any idea why/how the cost of sale dropped $6,000 from 2003 to 2004?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

The price discrepancy could be due to sales made through the council and not credited to a specific unit in a district.

 

The decrease in cost of sales is due to more units opting to forgo prizes and take a higher commission (note the 3% increas in average commission)it is an option some councils choose to offer.

 

"If people spend an average of $15 for a fund raiser, my unit could sell these people 3 hoagies!"

 

How many hoagies does your average customer buy Ed? Remember also that at your hoagie profit of 41% your unit makes $6.15 on $15 in sales where as Scouting makes $10.

 

 

[Hunt]

I think there are a couple of elements to this thread--some practical, and some ethical.

 

Some people have raised primarily a practical complaint--the popcorn products have risen in price too much, making them too difficult to sell. I don't see this as much of an attack on BSA--just a suggestion that they need to add some lower-price products, or look at other authorized products. After all, there's nothing magic or particularly scout-related about popcorn.

 

The ethical issues are more thorny. I think it's obvious to most people that almost nobody buys Boy Scout popcorn because they want the popcorn (in contrast with Girl Scout cookies). They buy it only because they want to give money to the Scouts. You have to wonder whether most of them would simply give the money as a donation if asked to do so. So are Scouts really "selling" a product when they sell popcorn, or are they really soliciting donations?

 

I personally prefer fundraisers in which labor by the scouts (and adults, usually) either creates the value or adds value to the product sold. For example, my son's troop sells and delivers mulch. People are happy to pay more than the mulch at Home Depot, because we deliver it--that labor adds value.

 

A final issue is the Council share of popcorn sales. Obviously, this is just one possible mechanism for funding the Council, but I suppose it is relatively easy to administer. Perhaps a Council could let units drop popcorn sales if they agreed to earmark a share of other fundraising efforts for the Council.

[packsaddle]

Hunt, you made some good points. I just think the most direct way to avoid those thorny issues is to take the lead from Trails End who someone mentioned did a market analysis. I have to hand it to Trails End. They did a masterful job of analysing the market potential and then creating a fund-raising relationship with BSA that allows both to make a lot of money. If BSA adopted a market approach as has been so successful for Trails End and applied it thoughout the organization by deciding fees for goods and services, objective competitive forces arising between vendor and customers would eliminate some, perhaps many, of those thorns. Everything would be open and transparent, and people could make informed decisions based on benefit/cost.

I'm feeling like the only free-market capitalist in the group here. I wonder what Joseph McCarthy would be thinking about this?

[Bob White]

Summer Camp FREE

Oh you want a meal $7 each

Dining hall use $5

Swim Test for pool access $3

Buddy Tag $1

Pool entrance $5 per day

You want to go somewhere in the camp, Trail head toll $1

Canoeing ?

Canoe rental $7 for 30 minutes, $8.50 with PFD

Oh you want paddles too $5

Rapelling Tower $5

Campcraft $5-$15 deppending on project

Plus trail toll of course.

(how else can we do trail maintenance unless we charge you to use it?

Sure we can mow the campsite $20

 

Is that really the scouting world you want?

 

 

[evmori]

Sales average about 2/person.

 

Actually, Bob, for $15 in popcorn sales, the Troop gets $5. The council gets the other $5. So the Troop makes $1.15 more on every $15 in sales selling hoagies.

 

Hunt has a good point and the numbers from the link you posted, Bob, bear them out. People are actually buying popcorn because it is sold by the Scouts, not for the popcorn itself. So, a unit could buy bulk at Sams or Costco & sell the exact same quantities for a lesser price & probably a greater profit.

 

If summer camp is free, why would there be a charge for all that other stuff? The camp fee includes all that stuff?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Well, Yeah. At the camp we attend, if a person wants to visit for a meal, they ARE charged a fee for the individual meal. Otherwise the total weekly cost is included as part of the camp fee that all campers pay. Are you saying there are free camps? As for the other fees, the boys already pay for basketry materials, cartridges for the rifles, shells for the shotguns, carving supplies, leather supplies, etc. If a material is shared commonly by the camp, say, waterfront tags, or if its individual cost is so small as to be cumbersome to recover as an individual fee, the cost can be fairly added to the overall fee. Is this really that difficult a concept? Or is this a demonstration of passive-aggressiveness?

[Hunt]

My idea--and I hope you like it better--is that each unit should have an apportionment, sort of like each church in the United Methodist Church has. Based on your size, there is a certain amount of money you are expected to contribute to the regional and national organizations. You can raise it any way you want, and if you are a disadvantaged church, you can get a reduction or a waiver. (It's actually more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.)

If there was an established apportionment like that, a unit could draw it down by selling popcorn, or by doing its own fundraisers, or by sharing donated funds. What's wrong with that idea?

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[evmori]

$15 * 34% = $5.10 Troop profit selling popcorn (one item)

 

$15 * 41% = $6.15 Troop profit selling hoagies (three items)

 

Sure I need to sell more because my product costs 1/3 the price of yours. But the value is better making the sale equal.

 

Sure I know the Money Earning form must be filled out to sell products in uniform. They don't need to be sold in uniform. They can be sold in our non-BSA official Troop 1 t-shirts!

 

And some camps charge for things like gas for motorboating, shotgun shells, etc. already!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Hunt]

"You are saying that you have to sell to 8 times as many customers to make a $1.15 more than seling to one Popcon customer. Does that really make good business sense to you?"

 

Well, maybe. It depends on which product creates a greater volume of sales. If it didn't, the thing to do would be to sell mega-tins of popcorn for $1000 each. You wouldn't have to sell many of those babies to fund summer camp!

 

How about this idea--have the troop buy a fixer-upper house, and then have the boys fix it up and then resell it. They could probably earn Home Repair, Painting, and Plumbing MBs at the same time, and the troop would only have to sell ONE item. (You know, except for getting the initial dough to buy the house, that idea doesn't seem as ridiculous as when I first thought of it.)

 

More seriously, the Girl Scouts move a lot of cookies, in large part because people actually want them, and because one box is pretty cheap. Although you can buy similar cookies in the store, you can't buy those exact cookies, and people really like them. (I always buy some Samoas, for example.) This just isn't the case with popcorn. It's not even really all that much of a convenience to have it brought to your house. In my home town, there was a charity that sold brooms door to door. They were successful, because people often need a new broom, but never think to go and buy one. My church youth group had some success with light bulbs, for similar reasons. Even if you don't need them now, eventually you will. Again, popcorn just doesn't fit that model for many people. (I don't like candy bar sales for similar reasons, but others suggest that they sell OK because they are cheap.)