Popcorn - Is it finally too expensive?

[madkins007]

Bob White posted " Well who can argue with logic like that? Absolutely, go to the unit committee and tell them dispite all the money they made and all the things it purchased for the scouts, and all the prizes that the boys got, the unit should stop doing it because YOU don't like it.

 

I'll bet that goes over real big. Now that you've explained it so well who could disagree? "

 

Actually, it went over quite well when I made just those suggestions. I was not by any means the only one on the committee who thought the stuff was over-priced and were irritated by the Council's emerging strong-arm policies.

 

The troop I was in decided to make popcorn a minor fundraiser and other things the major fundraisers.

 

The percentage back to the council was not a major issue (other than how it impacted the product costs), nor was percentage of profits the deciding factor.

 

We wanted something that we could sell and feel good about because it was a good price for what it was without needing the leverage of 'helping Scouting', and that people wanted to buy. Gee, sorta like the fundraising guidelines suggest!

[FScouter]

Here's a solution to the problem of high price. Go the the Sam's Club and buy cases of Orville or Jiffy Pop or whatever. Sell it for the same price as Sam's. I'd bet that would reduce (but not eliminate) comments about the price. Unit sales volume would go up too. Sound like a plan?

[evmori]

OK. Now I see how the math works. But the profit margin for the hoagies all goes to the Troop. For popcorn, only 34% goes to the Troop not 68%. So the math would look like this

 

$2,815.54=7(Scouts)*91(units sold)*13(cost.unit)*.34(Troop profit)

 

Since Council makes the same %, they get the same amount.

 

Selling 195 hoagies at $5 (38% of the popcorn price) is a lot easier that selling 91 units of popcorn at $13.

 

And 195 hoagies is a little over double the 91 units of popcorn. Actually, 214%.

 

Like I posted earlier, we make $2.05/unit sold.

 

Our FOS contributions are in line with what each family can afford. I don't ask how much each one gives because frankly, it is none of my business.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

F Scouter here are the flaws in your Sam's Club Plan. A bSA unit cannot sel a branded product or service in uniform or using the BSA name or image, in the advertising, selling or delivery of the product or service.

 

If you had a young man come up to you in street clothes offering to sell you store bought popcorn at an increased price without telling you where he was from or where the money was going would you buy it?

 

The other problem is overages. In the three councils where I have been involved in Popcorn Sales the council took back any full cartons of unsold product so that they would not deduct from the units profits. I'm not sure you could get Sam's to do that.

 

 

Ed,

 

I undertand that the hoagies are not producing any financial support to the council you serve as a commissioner. That is why I am asking if your troop then makes an FOS donation that is large enough to make up for not selling popcorn PLUS what they would normally give in FOS from the families. Or do you do the hoagies so that you can keep all the money for yourselves and let the units that do popcorn and participate in FOS provide the council services for your unit at their expense rather than your own?

 

Yours is the only troop I ever heard of where FOS was not done as a unit presentation and the total pledged not announced to the unit, very odd indeed.

 

Your District professionals keep a history of unit by unit FOS totals. I know they would be happy to share that information to you.

 

Madkins

How do you determine something a major or minor fundraiser until after you see what the profits were? It would seem that the scouting way would be to do your best on any activity. Not decide before which you would do well at and which you will not.

 

 

BW

 

[evmori]

We do participate in popcorn. We do two fundraisers a year. We just make more money selling pizzas & hoagies.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10 (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Prairie_Scouter]

Bob, I didn't know if your question on "how we sell" was directed at me, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.

 

BTW, you only get 1/3 of the points because I don't complain about "everything" in Scouting, only a couple of specific things

 

Now, our sales.

We have a kickoff sale where everyone gets together on a Saturday morning for a "mad rush" sale, ie, sell as much as you door to door in 3 hours, for some instantly awarded prizes. I think the Council gave away from small radio control cars this year.

 

We do 2 weekends of site sales at local stores. We've gotten our best sales at the 2 main chain groceries in our area, Dominick's and Jewel. We've tried the discount groceries as well, but as you might expect, those customers are looking for deep discounts, and 8 bucks for a box of microwave popcorn doesn't fit in their budgets. We've tried the local libraries as well, with mixed results, and local Walgreen's and Osco's (pharmacy/small groceries). We had plans to try selling to local fire departments, the idea being that they buy their groceries once per shift and would conceivably buy a bunch to have things to snack on, plus the fact that they're more likely to support Scouts (not sure if they actually did that; my boys have both moved on to Boy Scouts, and so I'm not actually in the sale this year).

 

And lastly, door-to-door sales, and sales where the parents take the sale sheets to their place of business.

 

For the last year where I have figures, the 2004 sale, we had 40 Scouts participating, about $12K in total sales, with a net to the pack of about $3,500, if I remember correctly. The vast majority of the sales were of the lower priced items. We have gift tins selling for about $24, which we sell a handful of, and a $40 gift tin, which we sell zero of. We have to compete with the local schools, who also run their fundraisers in the fall (and winter, and spring )

 

I think I saw a mention of FOS as well. Just FYI, we do ours once a year at our winter court of honor.

 

 

[evmori]

Actually, I don't have the figures available. I would have to check with our fundraising chair. But I do know the fundraisers covered everyones camp fees plus.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

FOS?

[evmori]

FOS = Friends of Scouting.

 

Would have to check with the CC on that one. Remember, I am a lowly Advancement Chair. I'm not in charge of the cash.

 

$3,100 is a nice figure, Bob. How many families in your son's Troop?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Bob White]

My point again being that the many units who are successful selling popcorn are not the ones complaining that the BSA should drop it. Only the few units who do not use it or are not good at it complain. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[scoutldr]

To answer the discussion, we would have to know #units sold per scout nationwide over the past few years. Who among us has that data? Only then will we know if popcorn is declining. In the unit which I serve, the forms are passed out and the scouts are told that their share will be credited to their account to offset camp fees, etc. That's not much motivation, since if they don't sell anything, their parents will pay for summer camp anyway. Prizes? Why bother. They get anything they want anyway.

 

A modest proposal...can the popcorn. Make up the difference by charging user fees for Council services. $10 to process a Tour Permit. $15 to record an advancement form. $50 for an Eagle Application. 25% surcharge on all Scout Shop sales. $100 to rent a meeting room for training. You get the idea. It works for banks!

 

Obviously, this is a non-starter. But the point is, there is no free lunch. If units opt out of popcorn, Council has to get the money somewhere. Selling that camp looks real good ...

[evmori]

scoutldr has a good point. Charge to process forms at Council. Up the registration a little. Find a cheaper product to sell.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10 (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[packsaddle]

scoutldr, I'm just sorry I didn't think of it first. That's a GREAT idea! Is there anyone who does NOT think customers and users should pay for goods and services rendered? Of course they should!

 

'Pay-as-you-go' is a great way to bring the free market to the program and could also serve as a working example for the boys. It would work best if completely open to competition, though, with individuals and groups free to choose (based on value/cost) the vendor of the meeting rooms, etc. But those are details, the idea is a sound one and, I think, very innovative. It would also serve to introduce market forces into all aspects of council functions, and I think that would be a good thing.

 

The question, "Who is the customer?", could require a little clarification, though. Next time the district held a roundtable at XYZ church, for example, they may need to do a little market analysis first to get the best deal.

When the district rents the room and charges an admission fee (like those advertised real-estate seminars, for example), the customers (we volunteers) will be able to decide with a voice that WILL be heard. By choosing to pay or not, we will be able to state decisively whether or not we are getting a product worth paying for. And THAT would put at least some of the decision-making capacity right where it belongs.

 

[Bob White]

Registration money goes to National not to council,

Who in their right mind PAYS from roundtable space???

 

Why make families have to sell more product in order to make the same profit? That just doesn't make sense.

 

You would lose a large percentage of scouts and units in a pay as you go plan for all of scoutings services, you would take in less money and the council would not be able to afford to provide as mant services or resources. Your council does use pay as you go for some events such as camporees and popsters on this board have complained about that very thing, so its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

 

Yes popcorn cost less in the past but then so did everything else. Inflation and cost of living have risen faster than the cost of popcorn. People who did not sell popcor, or did not do it well have been complaining for years.

 

We have a town nearby with a population of 2,000. They have a pack and a troop. They refused for years to sell popcorn and sold christmas wreaths instead. They made nearly $1,000 in profit each year for their pack of 30 cubs.

 

Two years ago they had a change in leadership and tried popcorn for the first time. They did $8,000 in profit in a town of 2000 people.

 

Families now only pay for the uniform and for half of day camp, the popcorn pays for the rest of scouting for each scout.

 

Guess what??? They quit complaining about popcorn. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[packsaddle]

"You would lose a large percentage of scouts and units in a pay as you go plan..."

I'm very certain that there is no way to make that conclusion objectively. Part of the objection to fees for camporees, as I have heard it for example, is the perception that the district (or council) has received donations to fund BSA and THEN asks for camporee fees in addition. It is a matter of fiscal accountability. I am not saying these fees are unjustified, they may be. However, the objections I have heard are being made by persons who question whether the fees are correct, or warranted at all. As it is I have no factual way to respond to their questions except to refer them to the council.

 

I have heard the comment from parents (who are very astute in money matters) that it seems that a few boys who sell most of the popcorn are providing the majority of support to higher levels, support that then comes back to everyone, in various forms, even to those boys who have not participated actively in the fundraiser. These parents are very conservative in their outlook and are suspicious of anything with a 'socialist' overtone.

This issue has similarities to the "iterated prisoner's dilemma"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

an interesting model of decisions and interactions in cooperative relationships.

 

[i also have to add that these parents tend to be critical of BSA with a twist that most of the readers in these forums would find curious. They consider BSA to be an example of a 'socialist' organization in which the capable few are 'parasitized' by the needy many for some nebulous common good. In scouting there is little, if any, personal wealth or personal ownership, but rather property and wealth are owned and controlled by a central authority - property that the members are allowed to use and maintain while they serve the authority. The rules are also dictated by the central authority whose hierarchy seems closed to scrutiny - and punishment is given to anyone who dissents openly.]

This might be a good topic for a thread or for further discussion if it hasn't been tried before.

 

These individuals are proponents of capitalism and a market approach to everything. I find their arguments persuasive. In a purely market-based approach, the actual cost of services provided by the council (or district) could be determined from past experience and recovered through pay-as-you-go. It is, in fact, the best way to determine those fees. If the council went to this approach and abandoned the fund-raisers (still allowing voluntary donations), it would operate much more like a real business...indeed it IS a business. And the mixed message of asking for donations with one hand while demanding pay for services with the other hand - would be avoided.

But even ignoring this last part. I think it would be simpler and more straight-forward to bring market forces into BSA, including competition. I think this would be good for the organization and the boys and units as well. And it would quickly identify the uncompetitive features which would either change or go away.

Edited part: typo, sorry(This message has been edited by packsaddle)