What would have to change if gays were allowed in?

[Eamonn]

Eamonn - you say "I don't treat [girls] any different than the boys." But surely this isn't true when it comes to sleeping arrangements, is it?

Of course where possible (Sometimes on a small boat it isn't always possible.) Adults, Male youth, female youth youth do all have separate sleeping quarters.

Adults and youth respect the privacy of others.

 

I posted a few years back that the Ship's Committee had to remove a male Sea Scout for acting inappropriately toward another male Sea Scout.

At the time there was a lot of talk about if the Lad was gay or not?

My argument was it didn't make any difference. I didn't care if this had been a boy and a girl, a girl and a boy or two girls. Inappropriate is inappropriate.

 

 

As a Scout and a young leader back in the UK before all the changes. The District I served and was in was led by a really nice fellow. Ernie, this man gave his life to Scouts and Scouting. He was well respected by everyone and received a good many recognitions for the work he done.

I liked and respected him. He was at times able to keep me in check, when I first became a leader and was very much like a bull in a china shop.

Ernie was never married, but at the time this wasn't uncommon for a good many adult leaders in the UK. Scouting was never seen as the family activity it is here in the USA. At the time a lot of men who were involved in Scouting seemed to be so deeply involved that no one really gave it a second thought.

I moved across the pond. Ernie passed away.

Years past and I was having lunch with a very close and dear friend at the dinning room n New Scotland Yard. My friend was at the time one of the highest ranking officers in the London Metropolitan Police. He had served as an Assistant District Commissioner to Ernie.

At lunch we were reminiscing, talking about the good old days and the people we had worked with. Ernie's name came up. I was shocked when my friend said that Ernie was gay.

Ernie did seem to have a lot of younger nephews that would come and stay with him. I never gave this a second thought. It seems one of these nephews started to harass Ernie and he'd called on my friend to step in.

I knew Ernie about 30 years ago! While of course homosexuality was known about, at that time it was never really discussed.

I was shocked when I heard about Ernie being gay.

Shocked because I never knew, nor did anyone else.

Ernie being gay didn't ever take away from the good he did for Scouting in our area. I camped with him on several occasions we shared a tent. I never felt in any way uncomfortable. I would hope that if I'd known I would have felt the same way.

 

We might not like to talk about it but I know that back when I was a young Scout myself and the other Scouts about my age were involved in what might be called "Experimentation"?

We were guilty of sneaking copies of magazines like Play Boy.

We had just discovered masturbation, we wanted to find out who had the "Biggest".

We never thought about being gay or straight. We did know that we wanted to find out more and couldn't wait to fed on the forbidden fruits that magazines like Playboy was showing.

I don't know when someone decides their sexual orientation?

Sex is a wonderful thing, but it has its place and time.

I enjoy having a few adult beverages, but when I with scouts or on a Scouting activity I'm happy to wait till the activity is over. Maybe in time some of the Scouts I serve will grow to enjoy the odd adult beverage. But even though they might want to jump the gun and try drinking now. They will have to wait.

Will a few try and sneak? I think they will. But both as a parent and a Scouter I have done what I can to explain why they shouldn't and not allow them to drink.

There is always alcohol in my home. I suppose that OJ could have at any time sneaked some and taken it to camp with him.

Are we going to have kids who come from homes where there is alcohol around sleep in separate tents?

All Scouts male or female are expected to refrain from sexual activities until they are old enough and even then there is a time and a place for this sort of thing.

Scout camp is not the time or the place.

I don't care if it's gay sex or straight sex.

Eamonn.

 

 

[GaHillBilly]

"On the flip side, one of the co-leaders in my daughters GS troop is "out" and has daughter in the troop. This is one of things I think GSUSA got right."

 

Maybe in your area.

 

I don't know why I hadn't thought to bring this up before. Maybe it's because so many years have passed.

 

But, for a number of years, long before I had any involvement with Scouting, I provided services over a period of years to a nearby Girl Scout Camp. The services put me on site, but behind the scenes in sort of an not-quite-out-of-site, but definitely out of mind way.

 

I never had any professional problems with them, so I have zero complaints on that score. But, the non-work experiences led me to vehemently warn friends and neighbors about letting their girls go to camp.

 

+ In all my years working in a service capacity, I got propositioned (heterosexually) a number of times. All but one of those occasions came at the GS Camp.

+ One of the weirdest was from the female camp director who was in a sorta 'out' relationship with a local YMCA female staff person. She caught me totally off-guard because I had assumed she didn't 'swing' that way.

+ Another senior staff person propositioned every single guy working for me that got with in range.

+ Another year, while I was working near by, a group of staff people graphically discussed -- while in the presence of a bunch of 9 - 10 year old campers -- all the things they were going to do with and to their 'significant others' during the upcoming 'break week'.

+ Other staff were hired from a nearby by 'horse camp', locally notorious for being having an aggressively all lesbian staff, and for engaging in coercive seduction of hetero teen girls at the camp. The coercion was all mental / romantic, not physical, but they were dealing with rich girls from emotionally distant homes who were desperate for someone who'd care about them. The camp also hosted an annual lesbian conference / orgy. (And, yes, I do KNOW. I've spoken to both EMT's who answered pre-HIPAA calls there, and more extensively to the guy who was their on site maintenance guy. One of the guys had taken some secret pics to show around, more for laffs than anything else. As he said, when naked, most of those women looked like they'd been laid down in the road and run over with a truck.)

+ Many other episodes still need to remain unmentioned, because they are too identifiable personally.

 

 

 

It's been a number of years, so I have no knowledge about whether these things are still going on. But, if you think being pro-sex among young teens is "getting it right", well the GSA camp in my area definitely got it right.

 

GaHillBilly

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Maybe I have this wrong, but there is something I need to ask. In the Troop I serve, the adults, or the PLC for that matter do not assign tentmates, that is a boy by boy decision.

 

Under what situation could you see a boy having to tent with someone they did not want to tent with?

 

 

[skeptic]

It seems to me that Eamonn points out once again the reality of how it has been, and likely should be. If it is not made into a public issue, then it never becomes a problem. Once it crosses that line and becomes a problem of some kind, whether hetero or Gay, then it has to be dealt with. This is as it should be.

 

The ban has been so taken out of context by its detractors, that it is hardly really understood. First, it has never included youth, as long as they do not make things public displays. The adult ban is on "avowed Gays", those individuals who feel the need to push their agenda and lifestyle in a manner that makes it a public issue that causes problems and threatens some people.

 

Just like hetero individuals, the issue should simply not be public. Most units quietly push "known" philanderers out if it becomes a problem within the group. They do the same for drug users, public alcoholics, foul mouthed or abusive people, and so on. It would not be nearly the problem politically that it is if it had not become the PC agenda of a few "avowed" individuals, most of whom were never actually involved in the first place.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

HiLo says, "In Australia, where girls and gays are welcome members, Scout membership is growing at a very healthy rate."

 

From the Scouts Australia web site, where they have their annual reports for the last eight years.

Division20012008Percent declineJoeys (6-7.5)8447515739%Cubs (7.5-10.5)275382013527%Scouts (10.5-14.5)214481705620%Venturers (14.5-17.5)6423418535%Rovers (17.5-26)3347230431%Total Youth672034883727%Groups (units)2126166822%

 

This does not appear to be consistent with "growing at a very healthy rate". HiLo - can you elaborate on what you meant?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The ban has been so taken out of context by its detractors, that it is hardly really understood. First, it has never included youth, as long as they do not make things public displays.

 

The BSA's 1991 position statement said that "the Boy Scouts of America does not accept homosexuals as members or as leaders, whether in volunteer or professional capacities."

 

Just like hetero individuals, the issue should simply not be public.

 

So the BSA should kick out heterosexuals who wear wedding rings?

[Oak Tree]

skeptic, you might check out bsalegal.org.

 

You say, "it [the ban on gays] has never included youth"

 

From bsalegal.orgBoy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scoutings values and beliefs. Most boys join Scouting when they are 10 or 11 years old. As they continue in the program, all Scouts are expected to take leadership positions. In the unlikely event that an older boy were to hold himself out as homosexual, he would not be able to continue in a youth leadership position.The first few sentences seem to imply that homosexual youth would not be able to be members, but the final sentence clearly states that at a minimum they couldn't be leaders.

 

You also say the ban on adults is on "avowed Gays". The ban isn't just on avowed gays, though. It's also on "known gays". "a known or avowed homosexual does not present a desirable role model for the youth in the Scouting program."

 

You also say that "It would not be nearly the problem politically that it is if it had not become the PC agenda of a few "avowed" individuals, most of whom were never actually involved in the first place. " This is not apparently true for the Dale case which was the big test case. He was quite involved and it's not surprising that he was chosen to be the test case. Even if it were the fact that most of the test cases were from non-engaged individuals, how is that a good basis to make policy? Individual units would presumably select only good, engaged leaders. Why do you think the BSA would need to have a national ban?

[BrentAllen]

Good afternoon to all my fellow bigots (yes, including you Gern)

 

If this is a bigoted organization because we discriminate, then all who join must be bigots.

 

Either you are a bigot because you agree with the values when you join, or you are a coward, since you can't actually stand on your own two feet and say, "I disagree with the positions of the BSA, so I will not join to support them."

 

So, which is it - bigot or coward?

 

Merlyn,

Yes, that 2% increase is something to brag about! By percentage, the US loss in membership is a drop in the bucket compared to Scouts Canada.

[GernBlansten]

Is it a coward who speaks up against his brethren when he feels they are not behaving to the values they preach? Is it a coward who points out the logical flaws in their arguments?

 

Or it is the coward who just shakes his head quietly and allows them to continue?

[vol_scouter]

HiLo,

 

You are correct, pedophiles are not the same as homosexuals. Pedophiles, by definition, have sex with prepubertal children - most commonly of the same sex. If the child is pubertal, then the relationship is homosexual for an adult and a child of the same sex. So in general, adults having sex with cubs is pedophilia whereas same sex relationships with boy scout age children are homosexual in nature.

 

As to the effect of adding openly homosexual adults and youth to the BSA, I think that there would be an almost immediate massive cancellation of troops in many sections of the country. Although learning what has happened in other countries can be helpful, it does not necessarily mean that the same thing would happen in the US.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

You still don't know what a post hoc fallacy is, Brent.

[shortridge]

skeptic wrote: "The adult ban is on "avowed Gays", those individuals who feel the need to push their agenda and lifestyle in a manner that makes it a public issue that causes problems and threatens some people."

 

So what behavior crosses the line to make someone an "avowed gay" from just being "gay"? Talking about your partner? Wearing a ring? Reading a copy of The Advocate during camp siesta?

 

Any type of behavior can threaten "some people." Upon whom would you put the burden of judging appropriate behavior and setting community standards?

[BrentAllen]

Gern,

We ARE living up to OUR values - we aren't living up to YOUR values. No worries - the world is full of people who compromise their principals. As I posted before, Honor is probably the most difficult virtue to uphold because it requires that one first be honest with oneself.

 

Merlyn,

If the Scouts Canada membership decline due to admission of girls and gays is a post hoc fallacy, then I can claim the same thing with the BSA decline. The problem is, neither of us can prove our point. Too many variables and not enough information. Unless, of course, you can prove what caused the drastic decline in Scouts Canada membership. Care to share?

 

Let me know what your new Spelling Word is for next week, ok?

[GernBlansten]

So Brent, am I a coward?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

BrentAllen writes:

If the Scouts Canada membership decline due to admission of girls and gays is a post hoc fallacy, then I can claim the same thing with the BSA decline.

 

That was my point.

 

The problem is, neither of us can prove our point. Too many variables and not enough information.

 

Which is why your statement is worthless.

 

And, by the way, what's your basis for stating "AGW is the greatest hoax of our lifetime" in the other thread? Oh, it's the same basis. Absolutely nothing.