School SafeRides program stalls due to religion

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

PeteM, you need to read the 14th amendment too, and how state governments (and their agents, like public school officials) can't infringe on the first amendment.

 

Beavah, when people are trying to take away the civil rights of atheists, it IS a battle, not just a polite discussion.

[John-in-KC]

Beavah and Merlyn LeRoy colloquied in part:

 

Beavah wrote this:

Your argument would have more merit if you supported equal access everywhere - includin' to government resources and government sponsored environments. As it is, it seems to me you are just tryin' to be more exclusive and discriminatory than you claim da BSA is.

 

Merlyn responded with this:

Only from your warped perspective.

 

When has an ad hominem attack ever helped move a debate forward?

 

Merlyn, Beavah tried to bottom-line your position in his last sentence. It seems to me he deserves a coherent response, not an ad hominem attack.

 

[Gonzo1]

Wow, this one is fun to watch!

 

PeteM,

A long time ago, in a Supreme Court Chamber in Washington D.C., a landmark ruling determined that the Supreme Court was to be the "final arbiter" of what is constitutional and what isn't. It's not actually in the constitution, the court just decided it. So, it has become the way it is. A ruling here, a challenge there. The Supreme Court is actually not the final arbiter, but rather the people. You and I, all of us are the final arbiters, we the people decide. The is no "Separation of Church and State" in the constituion. There is the freedom of religion, freedom from religion and the right to peacably assemble.

 

Isn't is odd how when an area church is under construction, the congregation will rent space at a school? It's OK as long as the church forks over the dough, but watch out if 2 teachers each get $1,226.50

 

Beavah and Evmori,

There are no civil rights being "taken away" from anybody. Its an extracirricular program that is completely voluntary. Join if you wish, don't if you wish not to.

 

Perhaps the program can be held at some other place, but man, that's inconvenient.

 

Evmori,

Just a side note, if there was a fire at a church, is the fire department going to respond? That would be using taxpayer dollars at a religious institution.

 

BTW, I still don't buy Levi's and Docker's, but that's another discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

John-in-KC writes:

Merlyn, Beavah tried to bottom-line your position in his last sentence. It seems to me he deserves a coherent response, not an ad hominem attack.

 

It's the same-old same-old. If public schools aren't actively supporting the BSA's discriminatory program, they are somehow being "even more discriminatory" than the BSA. That's ridiculous. Public schools don't run private, whites-only groups for the KKK, either.

 

Beavah is equating "equal access" with "the government should be paying for my private, discriminatory program". They aren't even close to each other. If the government pays for free public schools that don't promote a religion, it isn't equal access to insist that the government also pay for schools that DO promote a religion.

 

It's hardly difficult to understand that public schools can't discriminate against atheists. If a public school owns & operates a private club that excludes atheists, that school is discriminating against atheists.

[Gonzo1]

Beavah,

You know what makes perfect sense? Getting Uncle Sugar out of the education business. Stop property taxes for schools, let the home owner keep the money, send junior to a private school or home school.

 

Where does it say that Big Brother needs to be indoctinating our kids.

 

[SSScout]

Amen, Gonzo.

 

Let's see if I have all this straight...

 

Public school charters a BSA "club" for the purpose of organizing a free "safe ride" home for people/students who need a "safe ride" home because they are too drunk/hung over/high/lost their ride from after school activities/etc. School authorities see a vauable program that will benefit the community. BUT...they do not realize that the students participating (the "drivers") in the program will be required to JOIN the "club". The only requirement to MAKE USE of the program is to raise one's hand and say "I NEEDA RIDE HOME", but to be a driver ( and be included in and covered by that modern day required convenience, INSURANCE), one has to JOIN the CLUB. One of the requirements to JOIN THE CLUB is to profess a belief in a higher power, ie (a) God. Can't profess such belief, can't be a member, can't help folks home with a "Safe Ride".

Somewhere along the line, (1) BSA neglected to notice that the "club" was going to be chartered by a (shudder) public school, contrary to BSA's rules/guidelines/codes/letters of intent to Councils. (2) School district neglected to notice that participants in "club" would be asked to declare belief in a higher power (ie God), contrary to public school rules/guidelines/codes/US Constitutional SCOTUS rulings/etc. (3) Everyone neglected to notice that our diverse adverse universe requires that someone will come along and ask to be accomodated, contrary to the disregarded civil rights regirements of a public school district.

How'm I doin' so far?

 

Now the BSA Council discovers that (1) their rules/guidelines/etc have been (shudder) disregarded and (2) the school district discovers that (shudder) they need to adjust to accomodate another minority (and respecting the minority's rights is one of the things that make our nation the bulwark of freedom that it is. Read the DoI) and (3) the local bar association discovers another discussion topic for the next convention.

 

Resolution: BSA council and school district each in their own way say "Gee, I din't realize. I'm real sorry". Local Methodist church picks up "club" charter, offers "safe ride" program to schools in area. Toll free number is donated by local Kiwanis club and phone company. DE is chastised by BSA Irving and also back slapped for almost getting it. Community gets safe rides, kids get neat activity and learn civic resbonsibilty. And bar association gets discussion topic.

 

As to school choice, some countries (African nations come to mind) require parents of children to PAY A SCHOOL FEE or the child does not atend school. That's a choice. No children, no fee. Less tax for the childless.

 

As to religious choice, well, that's one of the reasons some old dead people fought a war, if I remember my American history class, thank you Mr. Wozniak.

 

It all seems simple enough to me...

 

But it has been a neat thread, everything one might want for late night early morning reading....logic, law, history, pathos, emotion and romance (well, maybe no romance...)

But it was good, none the less...

 

YiS(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[Beavah]

You know what makes perfect sense? Getting Uncle Sugar out of the education business.

 

Yah, Gonzo, I rather expect that had any of the Founding Fathers even conceived of government schooling as a possibility, the Bill of Rights would have included:

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Education, or prohibiting the free pursuit thereof."

 

We remain the only nation in the free world that does not support educational freedom of choice at the K-12 level. Any surprise that our kids lag behind all those other nations? A capitalist nation with a Soviet-style educational delivery system... right down to expunging religion so that kids are taught allegiance only to the State.

 

Beavah

 

[GernBlansten]

Abolish mandatory public education.

Wow, you folk really want feudalism and a class society.

Let's bring the good ol' USA back to a third world nation.

Why do you hate America so?

[Beavah]

Yah, Gern, you're right to point out that there's all kinds of emotional arguments out there, eh? Lots of folks that "believe" in government-run education like it's a faith, rather than lookin' at it as a practical problem.

 

Our Canadian neighbors support Catholic, private, and government school programs openly. Don't see them as bein' a 3rd world, feudal society. England, France, the Scandinavian countries, Italy, Germany and on and on... all of 'em believe in Education, but they don't condone a monopoly on tax funding to government schools. In fact in Britain "public school" is really what we would call private, eh? No 3rd world feudalism there, either.

 

Fact is, you don't really hit government school pseudo-monopolies like ours until you get to places like Saudi or North Korea. Sterling examples for us to emulate, eh?

 

Merlyn would have us sanitize diversity from the public square. I think that's the way to feudalism. If we really care about diversity, we should fund anybody who's doin' a public work. Do we think for a moment that students graduating from Notre Dame or Purdue are less American than those graduating from Indiana State? Do we really care if it's the BSA or the Jewish student union that's giving a safe ride home to kids who need it? Strength in diversity is to allow each group to contribute without having to change to become more like the government, and to fund all groups performing a public service without regard to their beliefs.

 

Like da free world does, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

Gern,

 

No, K-12 education should continue to be mandatory.

 

Federal funding of education is one of our problems. The several States need to be the focal points of education.

 

I've watched my son go through secondary education under NCLB. He has good teachers; they are not teaching the test. That said, his school day is longer than mine ever was, his lunch break is shorter, and the young people don't get a chance to get out and get some fresh air and exercise (sometimes called PE).

 

Of course, what Beavah said about taking God out of the schoolhouse is true. We need a Supreme Court which looks at what the Framers meant, not what William O Douglas convinced the Court to change to in 1947.

[GernBlansten]

John,

The three previous posts to mine advocate eliminating public education and replacing it with private, self funded education. To even advocate such a stance is pining a return to a state where you have a peasant class and an power class. It would be a return to the middle ages. I for one love America and all the opportunities she has to offer, especially the fact that every child has an chance.

[Gonzo1]

Gern,

I didn't mean to suggest not having compulsory education, but rather, not state run schools.

My kids attend a public school, a good one too. At the PTO meetings, they actually begin those with prayer, I led one there once.

 

I don't like that my retired neighbors have to pay for public schooling.

 

Complusory education is fine. In fact, we could lower the drop-out rate by raising the mandatory age for school attendance to 21 or obtain a high school diploma, whichever comes first.

 

When competition exists, quality goes up. Since there is little competition with public schools, the (overall) quality is not as good as it could be.

 

I have heard recently that some public schools out west make grade school children watch Al Gore's mockumentary about the environment. Complete waste of taxper money having valuable school time taken up with that nonsense. But, Al gore is a topic for another day.

 

Happy Father's Day.

[GernBlansten]

So retired people and those who are childless should be relieved from paying for public education? What a narrow view on the benefits to society education is. Did you ever consider that the reason those people were able to retire is because of the public education they received as youth? Without it, they would probably be toiling to the grave like so many do in third world countries.

I have heard recently that some public schools out west make grade school children watch Al Gore's mockumentary about the environment. Complete waste of taxper money having valuable school time taken up with that nonsense. But, Al gore is a topic for another day.

Yeah, I feel the same way when the bible thumpers want my child to say their prayers in school and be taught creationism as an equally competing theory to our origins.

[Gonzo1]

Gern,

I'll conceed that there are two sides to this. Make retirees continue paying for school taxes and private school vouchers.

 

There's a growing home school approach going on too.

 

I don't like Uncle Sam meddling, period. When I was a lad presented with "evolution" in public school, I decided, not my parents, that i would be present for class, but not participate in the class. I didn't take the exam for that secto, took the failing rade for the exam and my parents supported me.

 

>>> Yeah, I feel the same way when the bible thumpers want my child to say their prayers in school and be taught creationism as an equally competing theory to our origins

 

Can I assume you don't believe in creation? don't believe in God? I also don't favor forced school prayer. My kids have a "moment of silent reflection" at the beginning of the day.

 

[GernBlansten]

Do I believe in GOD? Well, I'm a scouter ain't I?

 

In your mind, does someone who thinks evolution is the best answer to our history an athiest?

 

I was raised a Lutheran, but became a deist (like the majority of our founding fathers) after my epiphany that ALL organized religion and dogma is a fabrication of the human psyche. Because I reject creationism, doesn't mean I reject a higher being.

 

Your rejection of evolution is your right but in my mind, your loss.

 

I'm all for home schooling and private religious education if that is what you can support. But don't make that the norm for the vast majority of Americans who rely on public education.(This message has been edited by GernBlansten)