Rumsfeld Receives Scouting's Highest Commendation

[Bobanon]

LOLOL sorry about the 00000! I wrote that at work in Word so I wouldn't misspell anything, (didn't want to give the forum spelling monitor ammo), and didn't want the IT Nazis at work getting a wiff of what I was writing. Certain words send up flags for them. And I figured homosexual would be a flag word.

 

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

So the IT people at your work wake people up at 3am and pull them from their beds and they are never heard of again?

[Bobanon]

BrentAllen,

 

I forgot to mention about Mr. Bush's first Commerce Sec. and the revelations Mr. Paul O'Neill came out with after leaving the cabinet. O'Neill claims that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld wanted to implicate Saddam Hussein long before talk of invading Iraq ever came out. He claims that they (Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld), were obcessive about it.

 

How ethical is that? Ooops, my mistake, never mind, don't try to answer something you couldn't.

[BrentAllen]

Actually, it is "obsessive", not "obcessive." At least it is here, out from under rocks.

 

"BrentAllen are you the forum spelling monitor?"

 

No.

 

 

 

Enough; you both need to chill out. Quit with the name calling and the ethics bashing. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Bobanon]

OldGreyEagle zey haf vays of makink you talk. Actually the company I work for believes that anyone with internet access is just waiting for the moment they can look at dirty pictures on the net.

 

Forum Monitor......cooling it here Boss. ;o)

[SR540Beaver]

Let's have a big shout out for the editing staff member. THANK YOU!!! You are far more patient than me....perhaps that is why you are staff and I am not.

[BrentAllen]

So Beav, you get all riled up when someone suggests the Silver Beavers might be political, but you then turn right around and accuse the BSA of doing that with the Silver Buffalo, without any evidence. Interesting. Golden Rule?

 

The BSA put in a lot of sweat equity and materials to build structures at AP Hill, as a form of payment for the use of the facility. Those structures are still there, to be used by others as well as the BSA.

[Hunt]

C'mon, Brent--anybody whose been involved in Scouting for very long knows people who received the Silver Beaver for long years of selfless giving to Scouting. The Silver Buffalo being given to current political leaders is a totally different thing. It relates, apparently, to actions taken in their official capacities--and its being given to a person who still has the power to use his official capacity to BSA's benefit. It may not be wrong, exactly, but in my opinion it's a lot cheesier than giving a Silver Beaver to a guy who's been a scoutmaster for 40 years. Maybe there are cheesy Silver Beavers, too, I don't know.

[firstpusk]

"I'm so tired of this argument."

 

Too bad. You should understand the argument before you tire of it.

 

"Do I really need to post all the quotes again from ALL the politicians who spoke of what a grave threat Saddam was, with his weapons? Kerry, Clinton, Albright, Berger, Gore, Kennedy, Waxman, Edwards, Cohen? Ill be glad to do it, again."

 

I suppose that you will claim that they were working with the same intelligence that the Bush administration had. This simply won't cut it. There are too many examples like the Niger yellowcake story. You see the problem is these folks were being lied to just like you and me. Too bad they actually expected honesty from Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Powell.

 

"Then you will say they were all lying too..."

 

Not a chance. As I said above, they were lied to just like you and me.I would say that they were intentionally given mis-information that skewed their understanding.

 

"...or change your story to Bush wasn't actually lying, he just cherry-picked the intelligence. That would be just as false as your claim that Bush lied to get us into war."

 

The administration both cherry-picked intelligence and lied us into war with Iraq.

 

"The fact is there was an intelligence failure."

 

It seems to me that the more honest way to characterize the situation is to say that intelligence was adequate to warn us that war with Iraq was unnecessary. The failure was to properly use intelligence. Instead, we had an administration that sought war with Iraq even before 9/11.

 

"Everyone, let me repeat EVERYONE, thought he had the weapons."

 

This is not true. Many questioned the administation's assertions. The inspectors were getting access to all requested facilities and finding nothing. One should remember that Rumsfeld told the inspectors, Congress and the American people that he knew where the weapons were. This "information" was passed to the inspectors and they found nothing. We also had solid intelligence in the form of defectors indicating that Iraq had to disband their nuclear program during earlier inspections. Scientists and technicians were on the run trying to avoid any contact with inspectors. Information after the invasion indicates the nuclear program never was reconstituted.

 

"There was no evidence to suggest he had destroyed them. Saddam's men have stated they lied about the WMD's, so the Iranians and others would think they had them, and would fear them."

 

What was found in the earlier inspections had certainly been destroyed. That would be that the bulk of the weapons. We found no reconstituted programs or production facilities. Saddam's rule was based on fear. Keeping Iran in the dark would help Saddam keep control of the Shi'ite majority and reduce the threat of their Iranian sponsors. This is your one point that you makes some sense. However, it does not support the notion that Iraq had any WMD or capacity to produce them.

 

"The fact is our military won a tremendous victory in Iraq (planned by Rumsfeld). They covered more ground and won the battle in an amazingly short period of time. If you could see through your partisan glasses, you would remember the press was predicting lots and lots of G.I. deaths, especially when we reached Baghdad. The street fighting would be horrendous. It wasn't.

The plan to secure the peace afterwards has not gone well, but it has gone much better than what you are reading from your far left blogs. I can't predict what my kids will do tomorrow, so I imagine it was pretty hard predicting how the Iraqis would feel after the invasion, and what they would do."

 

I never doubted that Iraq could be taken. I did doubt that we would establish a peaceful democratic ally that would pay for its own reconstruction. However, the shifting rationale for invading Iraq puts the lie to your assertion that this was a great victory. We found no WMD. We have no evidence that Saddam had any connection to the 9/11 terrorists. In fact, shifting US military resources from Afghanistan to Iraq appears to be a major cause of Osama Bin Laden escaping the Tora Bora trap. Iraq was a Pyrrhic victory in that it bought the President sufficient time to be re-elected.

 

"I get my news from a variety of sources, including Fox News and Limbaugh. You should check them out, instead of just letting the lefties brainwash you. Seems to me the MSM has been issuing an awful lot of corrections and apologies."

 

I am well aware of the record inaccuracy of both Faux News and Rush. I know that the mainstream media does issue corrections. I don't expect corrections from either of your cherished sources even when they are caught dead wrong.

 

"Go crawl back under your small rock, where everyone hates Bush and thinks gays must be allowed in Scouting and religion must be removed, in order for the BSA to become "a great youth organization again.""

 

Your best arguments have been your spelling corrections. Perhaps you should stick to them.

[BrentAllen]

firstpusk,

I'll answer all your allegations, and believe me, I will enjoy doing so, but first let me ask you a few very simple questions. Have you done any independent research on the items you mentioned? Meaning, have you gone to the actual transcripts or Intelligence reports to read the material and draw your own conclusions? Or are you just repeating the rants from those in the "Hate Bush" crowd? Your answers are very important to this debate.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

What Hunt said. The Silver Beaver goes to recognize the average Joe who spends years of outstanding volunteer service at the local level. The Silver Buffalo goes to "celebrities" who can or do help scouting. One is an attaboy and the other is for favors and PR. No double standard, just fact.

 

I didn't get riled up, I just corrected a misconception where someone had a small picture view based on their individual council as opposed to the bigger picture nationally.

 

I'm well aware or the facilities at AP Hill. I was there as a Jambo ASM last year. The Jambo has been held there since '84. Rumsfeld is the current Sec of Defense, but had nothing to do with the infrastructure built there over the past 2 decades.

[BrentAllen]

Beav,

Maybe I'm missing something, but your last answer sounds a lot different than "As to Rumsfeld, purely political." As you pointed out, Rumsfeld had nothing to do with the Jamboree being held at AP Hill, so I don't know what favor or political policy he is being rewarded for.

 

For a full overview of the awards, including the nomination forms and addresses where to send them, check out:

http://www.bsa-gyc.org:8080/awards/distinguished_service.htm

[Bobanon]

I was a little hesitant to continue on since the ire of the Forum Admin has been raised. But what the heck............

 

BrentAllen I am still waiting for your response to what Paul O'Neill former Sec. of Commerce had to say about the skewing of intelligence to implicate Iraq for 9-11.

[BrentAllen]

B-,

I'm not going to ask if you ever conducted any research of these subjects, because it is obvious you haven't.

 

As for O'Neill, first, he was trying to sell a book. Now, let's look at his backpeddling after the book came out. From CNN (right-wing?)

 

"People are trying to make a case that I said the president was planning war in Iraq early in the administration," O'Neill said.

 

"Actually, there was a continuation of work that had been going on in the Clinton administration with the notion that there needed to be regime change in Iraq."

 

In case you missed it, he just denied what you claimed he said. More:

 

"The idea that Bush "came into office with a predisposition to invade Iraq, I think, is a total misunderstanding of the situation," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told reporters at the Pentagon."

 

Even more:

"Retired Army Gen. Hugh Shelton, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he saw nothing to indicate the United States was close to attacking Iraq early in Bush's term.

 

Shelton, who retired shortly after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, said the brass reviewed "on the shelf" plans to respond to crises with the incoming Bush administration.

 

But in the administration's first six months, "I saw nothing that would lead me to believe that we were any closer to attacking Iraq than we had been during the previous administration," Shelton told CNN. (Note: Shelton became Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Clinton)

 

I'm sure the truth is a shock to your system, but there it is. Even O'Neill himself points out that certain "People" are twisting his words - that would be "People" like you.

 

[Bobanon]

BrentAllen who said anything about invading Iraq prior to 9-11? O'neill claims that Bush and Co. wanted to implicate Iraq as the force behind 9-11 which is false. Faux News even reported it, and as H.L. Mencken would have put it, "Boobus Americanus" bought off on it hook line and sinker. This is apparently true as indicated by your position on the issue. If there hadn't been such a high cost in lives and money it would be funny. I myself do find the antics of the Bush cheerleading crowd to be something of a very sick joke.

 

The Bush Administration is the most ethically bankrupt administration in U.S. history. The supporters of the Bush Admin are the most unethical and clueless electorate in U.S. history. History will prove me correct in this, misspelled words and all.