When is behavior un-scoutlike.

[Backpacker]

Having been accused by Bob a number of times for things that were simply not true I have to agree with Zahnadas last post, especially the last line.

 

However I have been involved with scouting for over thirty years as a youth, webelos leader scoutmaster, district executive and a Venturing Advisor and for the record no one supports or believes in the scouting program and its methods more strongly than I do, not even you Bob.

 

To all those who think it is some kind of sin to discuss and debate different aspects of scouting then I say to you open your mind or choose not to participate in that topic, but do not accuse anyonewho has or is devoting their time as a scouter to the youth of our country as not being loyal, to me that is the worse violation of the scout law and extreme unscoutlike behavior.I do accuse Bob of doing that frequently to posters on this forum.

 

All of us here, with maybe two exceptions, love scouting and all it stands for and I am sure we all have had to defend the program to those who have opposed scouting , myself included.

 

My point is that sometimes we get caught up in tirades over minutia that is really meaningless in the greater theme of scouting. This is just a forum of scouters wanting to exchange ideas and debate issues, we do not make policy for National or are in a decision making capacity for the scouting program. We work with our units to bring the best program to our youth following the guidelines set by National, instead of criticizing each other we should be applauding each other for instilling a sense of morality, ethics, reverence in our youth who are growing up in an increasingly immoral, unethical, and irreverent culture. Bob you have a lot of experience to share, but so do many other of us here, sharing is a two way street and once you start accusing instead of sharing then the discussion ends and unscoutlike behavior begins.

 

[evmori]

No one has questioned "should we be". The point I was making is that you cannot always be all points at once. That they are not always compatable. Sometimes you must choose which serves the greatest good in the situation you are in. Ethical decision making.

 

Bob,

Do you have an example of this? I've been truing to think of one but for the life of me I can't come up with one!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Just to put Backpackers post in perspective, and I am probably not illustrating anything that the regular visitors on this board haven't noticed, but Ed and Backpacker don't like me.

 

I think Ed's post speak for themselves so I won't comment on them, it's just not a fair match-up.

 

But I just want to make things claer about backpacker, and anyone can verify this.

 

If you click on ont the number below his name on the left you can look at every post he has ever made.

 

From the beginning Backpacker has been on the attack. His 4th pot was removed becasue it was one big personal attack.

 

Has he changed? I looked at the content of his last 100 posts

 

16 were unrelated to scouting

30 were scouting related and 25% were negative about the BSA.

9 were attacks at other poster besides me

40 were attacks at me.

 

If we were in grade school I would have to think he had a crush on me.

 

I have an agenda, good scouting.

 

Backpacker has an agenda, and scouting evidently has nothing to do with it.

 

But don't take my word for read his posts again yourselves and see if you can figure out what he really is after.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[johndaigler]

BW,

 

Backpacker's resume is irrelevant. It doesn't give perspective - it might exemplify exactly what Zahnada posted.

 

It's OK with most of us that you see the world your way, but some people above have tried to make the point that you do not grant the same courtesy to others. You see some others as bullies and some others see you as a bully.

 

Let's get away from all that and talk about the ideas we post - not the quality, experience, training or knowledge of the poster.

 

Un-Scoutlike is when others see it as un-scoutlike. You don't get to judge yourself with this one - at least not wholly. Sure, many of us our capable of putting up posts that we regret the next day -- but, un-scoutlike is when others regret that we put up that post.

 

jd

 

 

[Backpacker]

Bob

 

Why you insist on distorting the truth continues to amaze me. To set the record straight I do not hate anyone on this forum, I may disagree or point out faulty statistics like you just gave Bob.

Secondly I am not negative about the BSA, otherwise why would I stay involved all these years. I have seen some things on the scouting professional side which I did not like even though I was involved in it for six years and see some of the results in the latest stories to hit the news.

However I ran my districts with openess and honesty which the volunteers responded extremely postive and both they and I were sucessful in meeting and exceeding all our goals. All of the scouting units that I have been or still are involved with are thriving and growing with sound programs from the BSA. So Bob if you interpret that as negative on scouting then you don't know what you are talking about.

 

Lastly if pointing out some wrong information you were giving out and correcting it is considered an attack on you, then I guess I'm guilty.

 

You can continue to twist my words and make up all kinds of erroneous stats you want about me I really don't care because my units, district and council know how much I care about scouting and thats all that matters, what you think means absolutely nothing to me. Spout all the poison about me and others you want to because it doesn't mean a thing to anyone.

 

I refer you back to Zahnada's post and challenge you to respond to him. or maybe he is right when he says...

"Bob, you are just a bully."

 

[bbng]

It seems to me that one is not acting Scout-like when tallying up what another says, assigning worth or lack of worth to it, and even judging when another is deserving of a response. To do that privately seems rather arrogant, but to do it publicly is unkind, particularly when any person visiting can see other posts and judge their merit on their own. It is not possible to correctly judge another's motives or depth of commitment. It may be possible to make assumptions, but assumptions tend to land one in hot water. Scout-like behavior is the willingness to listen to, try to understand, and then respond--even repeatedly--to another who is asking a question and looking for information. Scout-like behavior is the ability to disagree without attacking another person.

[Bob White]

Zahnada

If this board were really about debate then no one would mind if I defended the porgram for that would simply be the opposite side of the debate.

 

But when I defend the BSA I am called a uniform cop, bookworm, living in a bob white-land, having blind obedience, I've even been compared to nazi. what you consider debate is evryone discussing their version of what they think is wrong, but the moment I suggest that perhaps the BSA is not the one wrong, then I'm a bad guy.

 

I would be thrilled to see posters forced to address the issue and not the person. In fact I would welcome seeing the moderstors 'moderate' that very thing.

 

I have posted on this borad for three and half years and until yesterday I had never had a post removed.

 

I would like to see those that feel free to slander me rather than disuss the issue hold themselves to that as well.

 

If the moderators would like to keep this an even field and moderate discussions I think that would be great.

 

So lets see if this realy is a place for debate if some can rag on the BSA thanI and others should feel free to support this program without the personal attacks that have gone unpunished.

 

BW

 

 

 

 

[Zahnada]

Bob,

 

There are four basic stages of group development (actually there are more, but there are four main stages): forming, storming, norming and performing. If this forum were a group, it would be in storming.

 

Why do groups storm? Why do they start arguing with each other and have confrontations? Because they are establishing norms. They are establishing sets of guidelines, spoken or unspoken, by which the group needs to act. Until there is a consensus on these rules/guidelines and until everyone is willing to follow them, then the group will not be able to continue to develop.

 

You, Bob, are generally at the center of the storm. You antagonize posters who feel you don't oblige by the rules of conduct they expect from this forum. Now, certainly, you have been attacked yourself. I won't deny it. You have been at the center of some nasty assaults. A poster once made it his entire mission to get under your skin. But has it ever struck you that perhaps all these attacks might have something to do with you as well as the attackers?

 

It is not simply that you express an opposite view in a debate. It is not simply that you are being attacked for supporting BSA and following the program. There are many posters on this forum who deliver the same message. They fight on the same side of the debate. But there's something about you that makes people feel that you've violated the rules guiding the debate. Certainly, these rules are not written, but everyone feels them. That's why we're storming now.

 

Now, I won't defend the ones who routinely attack you. And you should know, when they try to twist the conversation into an attack on you, they usually fall on their face.

 

But you should know that in this ongoing battle, you are often an antagonist as well as a victim.

 

I encourage everyone in this forum to send Bob and others private messages with examples of how you felt they violated the norms of this group. Be specific or general, but be constructive. And if you receive one of these PMs, read it with an open mind and try to understand how another can see you this way.

[evmori]

Bob,

Never said I don't like you. I don't even know you. Not always agreeing with you isn't the same as not liking you! Heck, I don't always agree with my wife & I love her!

 

I think Ed's post speak for themselves so I won't comment on them, it's just not a fair match-up.

 

You gotta explain this one, Bob. And not in a PM - publicly.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

If my posts irritate folks who do not like the BSA or do not follow the program, that works fine for me. If someone is misusing the Scouting program and irritating the scouts and parents they serve then they have earned some irritation in their lives.

 

Its not like I am asking them to do something wrong. I am asking them to keep their word and follow the program. I am asking them to not maign a program they chose and remain members of voluntarily.

 

To ask to enter someones home and then insult them is unscoutlike ..is it not?

[Hunt]

Bob, rather than looking back at the posts of people who disagree with you, I suggest that you take a look at the posts of somebody who usually agrees with you--like Fscouter, for example. He (or I guess it could be she) also staunchly defends BSA policy and strongly disagrees with those who want to deviate from the program. And yet, I'm not aware that there has ever been the kind of personalized arguments involving Fscouter. I think this is a matter of style, and a tendency you have to ascribe a person's views to something other than an honest disagreement. I've said before that the way around this is to discuss issues on the merits--if you think BSA's way is good, explain why, rather than pointing out some reason your opponent is unqualified to express an opinion. Also, if somebody repeatedly gets your goat, why don't you just ignore him? I feel that sometimes your desire to score points off one antagonist has caused you to go off on a newcomer who doesn't realize how emotionally fraught a question might be (ie, with respect to uniforms). People who are perfectly nice in person can get sucked into an online flame war, with unattractive results.

 

[evmori]

I would like to address this "Enter one's home" metaphor.

 

I don't think that is an accurate comparison. Why? Well, one's home is a private residence where the owner sets the rules. Sort of like the BSA. The big difference is the the owner of a private residence is an individual not an organization. Therefore, the metaphor ends there.

 

A better metaphor would be comparing the BSA to a religious denomination. There are many more similarities. Now one can join a religious denomination & not agree with everything the religious denomination does. And if one doesn't agree, they are not kicked out. Now if they violate one of the tenants of this denomination, there is a chance they will be reprimanded & even kicked out. But if they are voicing their opinion, they probably won't be. After all, this is the USA not the USSR.

 

The BSA is very similar. A private organization with membership requirements. If someone violates one of the tenants of the BSA, they can be reprimanded, even removed from membership.

 

To me, this seems to be a better metaphor than one's house.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Asking Bob to ignore posters who pester him is solid advice, until you factor in one of the most prominent posters who go after Bob like a tick to a dog was once ignored by Bob. Then we were treated by that poster's comments on how he was being ignored.

 

Bob is certainly the center of the storm and I in no way defend his style of communication, but his substance is solid.

 

It would be best if we went on to discussing issues that involve scouting and giving advice to those who request it rather than gobbling up each other like rabid dogs

[Bob White]

Hunt,

FScouter is a moderator and it would be improper for HIM to openly debate posters who misrepresent the BSA. I have no such restriction and am free to excercise my obligation to support the program, policies, and procedures of the BSA as my position charges me to do.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Hunt]

It's been my observation that Fscouter does debate other posters, but he does it in a more friendly manner. Bob, what did you expect from this thread? Obviously, it stung you that some people accused you of unscoutlike behavior in this forum--but really, starting this thread invited others to point out reasons that this may have happened. Can't you muster enough introspection to ask yourself whether you have been using a constructive tone in your efforts to defend BSA? If it makes you feel any better, I feel that Ed Mori has also lowered the tone of the forum by his approach to you (and to Merlyn, for that matter). I think both of you should quit taking digs at each other, and to try you best to ignore anything that looks like a dig.