Is BSA failing by "Corporate" standards?

[GernBlansten]

I see Bob. Until you have acheived all the training and success at the local level, "shut your pie hole". Sorry, can't agree there, just isn't in me.

 

Yes, recruitment is done at the local level, but National has a black eye right now and their exploits are making it difficult to convince parents that BSA is a good organization for their kids. I'm not talking about parents who have a history with BSA, I'm talking new families who never experienced it. Case in point, my son tried to recruit his best friend, his dad said no way. He wouldn't allow his son to be involved in an organization that openly discriminates against athiests and gays. This was from a man who was neither, but thought BSA was intolerant and didn't want his son exposed to that intolerance. He wasn't targeting my unit's policies, his problem was with the National policy. No matter how trained nor how well we run our local program, we cannot recruit this type of family.

 

I think BSA needs to do some damage control with some national advertising campaign on the virtues of becoming a scout. I think they need to address the issues that keep getting them into trouble, like discriminatory membership policies. Instead, National just digs its heals in deeper.

[NJCubScouter]

Gern: Good post, I agree. I think that in some areas, for some people, the BSA's discriminatory membership policies are a hindrance to recruitment. It may not reflect in national numbers because of the "diversity" of opinion on these subjects between different areas of the country and different demographic settings. But I can tell you that in a "blue" state such as New Jersey, the membership policies are a stumbling block, while a change in these policies would result in very little (if any) loss of members. In other states, there might be a different result, and of course there would be differences within states, for example far-Eastern Pennsylvania vs. most of the rest of Pa.

[Trevorum]

You guys remember the film, "Mr. Roberts"?

 

Sometimes, I get the feeling we are on that ship. We love the old boat, we're loyal to our mission, and we're doing our jobs the best we can, but the ship is being driven by an out of touch skipper who doesn't care what we think or even where the ship seems to be going. All we can do is be like Ensign Pulver and throw the damned palm tree over the side now and then ...

[fgoodwin]

All adult leaders agreed to abide by the BSA DRP when they signed their adult application. If any adult now feels like they disagree with the DRP, they should do the honorable thing and quit.

[concerned_scout66]

"I think that in some areas, for some people, the BSA's

discriminatory membership policies are a hindrance to

recruitment."

 

Even as a conservative I can see this is true in WA and CA. Members of my own church are embarassed to be associated with BSA because it openly promotes intolerance and bigotry. These values are simply un-American. Scouters who try to correct this problem from within are met with the standard "if you don't like it, you can leave" response. It's a vicious way of dealing with a problem -- one that only further reduces the BSA support base.

 

Perhaps the best way to deal with this "corporate" problem is through more competition? In the corporate world, companies that fail to satisfy demand lose it to other companies that can fill that need.

 

If we've lost 30-50% of our boys and 50+% of our donations, a different organization more interested in supporting ALL Americans in Scouting should have a good chance at success. This same paradigm has happened in other countries and the intolerant organization always seems to lose market base. Why not here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fgoodwin]

Such alternative organizations exist.

 

And for those who simply cannot abide by BSA's policies, perhaps it is time for them to vote with their feet, leave, and join those other organizations.

[concerned_scout66]

fgoodwin,

 

Until now, I actually respected most of our posts. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

Even more concerned...

[Trevorum]

Fred,

Respectfully, that is the problem. Many, many people ARE voting with their feet by quitting and by not joining in the first place. Instead of growing and getting stronger each year, BSA is shrinking. No matter what we do at the unit level to provide a quality program, the overall movement is on an unhealthy course and the highly paid executives in Irving do not seem to be correcting the problems.

 

[Hunt]

"All adult leaders agreed to abide by the BSA DRP when they signed their adult application. If any adult now feels like they disagree with the DRP, they should do the honorable thing and quit."

 

Baloney. Disagreeing with the policy is completely different from violating it. The application includes a box indicating that the applicant will comply with the rules, regulations, etc. Disagreeing with the BSA policy on membership requirements is no different from disagreeing with some element of the GTSS--as long as you comply with it. Do you also think everybody that thinks BSA should allow girls should do the "honorable" thing and quit? Again I say, baloney. (And furthermore, the DRP says nothing about gay membership, which, in my opinion, is much more controversial among the general public than the ban on atheists.)

[fgoodwin]

Why would you voluntarily choose to stay in an organization if you don't agree with its principles?

[Trevorum]

Maybe they agree with its principles but not with its principals ...

[fgoodwin]

I know there have been threads here and elsewhere discussing the reasons behind BSA's membership decline. Some have suggested that BSA's policies regarding gays and God (and to a lesser extent, girls) have contributed to the membership decline.

 

I'm not sure I agree with that, but if anyone has a link to an online study that has examined this issue, I'd love to read it. I have not been able to find one, but I did find a study that looked at the decline in membership in Scouts Canada:

 

http://scoutdocs.ca/Membership_Retention/MRST.html

 

I've heard (but I don't have a reference) that Scouts Canada does not exclude gays. It is also open to girls. But I think it still excludes atheists.

 

So, Scouts Canada is more open than BSA with respect to two of the "3Gs", yet is seeing a steeper decline in membership than BSA.

 

So those who attribute BSA's decline to its policy on girls, gays and atheists will need to explain the even greater decline in Scouts Canada, even though they are open to girls & gays.

[Kahuna]

So "BSA, love it or leave it!"? I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever been a member of an organization that I agreed with 100% on every issue. That includes the BSA, the USAF and a host of others.

 

Although I think a lot of people are leaving and not joining because of some policies of the BSA and the increasing amount of YP rigamarole and G2SS we have to keep up with. I have a lot of trouble accepting some of those doctrines. I certainly think we could have a BSA program that involved gays or atheists (and have said before that I predict we WILL have when we start losing more than we gain).

 

But I still think the BSA is the only youth organization doing anything to build character and instill citizenship and leadership qualities in youth in any numbers. I think it is better than no BSA and am egocentric enough to believe it is better off with me than without me. (Besides, I haven't got my Silver Buffalo yet .)

 

There may come a time when I find it too disagreeable to remain, but for the next few years, I'll stick with it, warts and all.

[NJCubScouter]

Fgoodwin says:

 

Why would you voluntarily choose to stay in an organization if you don't agree with its principles?

 

Exclusion of openly gay people is not a principle of Scouting. Some people (including me) believe excluding gays simply because they are gay, violates the principles of Scouting. If we could all respect each other and recognize that this is an issue about which Scouting is legitimately divided, there could be a policy allowing you to practice discrimination in your unit while allowing me (actually our troop's CO) to practice non-discrimination in our unit (and I think that is what would happen in my son's troop.)

 

Now, "duty to God" is a principle of Scouting, that is why atheism presents a much more complicated issue. I still believe that the principles of Scouting require the exclusion of someone who openly espouses an affirmative belief in the non-existence of God, but unfortunately that does not seem to be the current policy, which according to at least one portion of the BSA's web site, also excludes agnostics, for example. I see no reason why a boy cannot do his "duty to God" if he thinks there might be one, but isn't sure. On the other hand, I am not certain that the alleged exclusion of "agnostics" is, in practice, what the BSA actually does. (I suppose this subject I have raised really should be a new thread.)

[Bob White]

Gern,

What you seem to be missing is that the BSA does not ask you to recruit people who do not share BSA's values. Nor does the BSA ask people to volunteer to be leaders in its program if they do not share BSA values. You see the BSA is a PRIVATE organization that has every right to determine who they are and who they are designed to serve, and the program is not designed to serve those who do not agree with its values. It chooses charter organizations based on shared values, the charter organization is supposed to choose leaders based on shared values.

 

No one who has a problem with the BSA's values has to join or is accepted in membership. That's what membership qualifications are all about, not everyone qualifies.

 

No one said "shut your pie hole", what I said was "do your job" before you decide others aren't doing theirs. If you cannot keep scouts in scouting its your unit program that is the problem. If it weren't, then everyone would be losing scouts...and they're not.

 

The real problem is that poor unit programs lose boys faster than good units can recruit.

 

The BSA creates the tools and gives us a workable blueprint, the unit leaders are expected to have the ability to use them properly. Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

 

Most unit leaders only know of council and national by what they hear through rumors or make up themselves. Few take the time to ask and fewer take the time to learn.

 

For instance, some seem surprised that the SE selects the selection committee and that they select persons who often support the SE. Well DUH! The SE has a job to do, why would he or she purposely try to surround themselves with people who will argue with them or cause strife within the committee. He has goals to accomplish on order to feed his family and pay his bills. Who would you expect him (or her) to want to work with. If you are in business are you purposely going to hire people who will interfere with you reaching your goals and objectives?

 

The people on these selection committees understand that the corporation needs a cooperative team effort to be productive, so do not be so shocked when they take that responsibility to heart.

 

The council/district professionals did not get their jobs by being strong program people, for the most part they are their because they are goal oriented administrators. We hired them to focus on infra-structure so that volunteers can focus on program. Membership is a direct reflection of program quality at the unit level.

 

It's doubtful that may who say that the BSA does not meet corporate standards have no ide what the BSA corporate structure is or how they operate, so they nake up what they think it is and then criticize their own fictional world.