BSA and Dissent

[NJCubScouter]

Bob and TP:

 

As I have said many times (every time someone questions why I (and "my ilk") remain involved in the BSA): If I thought that the "values" (or "core values") of the BSA required the exclusion of gay people, or if I (in Bob's words) did not "like the program," I would not be involved. I probably would not allow my opinions to affect my son's involvement if he wanted to be involved, but I would be "just" a parent.

 

However, I do not think that. The BSA's values do not require exclusion of anyone just because they are gay. The "program" does not require it either. The BSA's program and its core values would be perfectly fine and intact if the exclusion of gays was removed, especially if each CO were permitted to decide for itself whether to remove the exclusion, just like each CO now can decide whether it wants to have female leaders, or any number of other things.

 

So, TP, there is no "contradiction" and no "hypocrisy" -- not on my part, anyway. I think there is, on the part of the current leadership of the national BSA.

 

And, Bob, as far as things changing or not changing, I fully realize that things don't always go the way I want them to go. Believe me, I know that from personal experience. But the fact that things have not yet changed on this issue does not mean they will never change. Society changes, the identities of people on national boards change, policies change, what people thought were "values" turn out to just be opinions. Things change. Thirty years ago, when I was a Scout, the idea of a female Scoutmaster was unthinkable. It no longer is. History takes a long time to happen. I doubt this particular policy is going to change during my son's time as a Scout (and therefore, quite possibly, during my time as an active Scouter, though who knows about that), but we'll see. If I stay here, posting what I post for people who want to read it, maybe the policy has .000000000000000000000000001 percent more of a chance of changing.

[packsaddle]

tut, tut, tut, satellite sputtering...(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[packsaddle]

I was under the impression that membership also included the young men. But to answer your question, I'm not certain. An estimate, as if it matters, 100-n-500. I'm fairly sure that none of them has influence on membership rules.

 

"The BSA's program and its core values would be perfectly fine and intact if the exclusion of gays was removed, especially if each CO were permitted to decide for itself whether to remove the exclusion..." I agree.

 

Sincerely, Mr. Ilk(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Bob White]

My oversight packsaddle you are absoluetley correct, and since there are youth members that sit on the various national committees I should have phrased my question differently. Please allow me to do so.

 

Packsaddle, How many different youth members and adult volunteer members, would you guess you personally meet in a given year?

 

[packsaddle]

asked and answered. I am curious, though. How many youth members sit on national committees? How many and which of those committees determine membership rules?

[Bob White]

OK so we are going with the 200 to 500 number right? Let's look on the positive side and say 500.

 

So of the approximately 4.5 current youth and adult volunteers in the BSA you have NOT met 99.09 percent of them yet, but still you seem surprised that you have not met any volunteer that sits on a national committee.

 

There are volunteer representatives on the national committees both youth and adult. I can tell yopu from meeting a couple of them that there are neqarly 200 involved in the advancement comittee alone.

 

If you want to learn more about the national committees here is a thought. Who at national have you asked? Who locally for that matter have you asked? Have you participated in any national level events? Did you ask anyone there?

 

Every year I have gone to Philmont Training Center a group of national directors have visted each course and answered every questioned asked of them.

 

What would you need answered to be a better unit levelk leader? Who have you tried to contact to get that answer?

 

It seems to me that the membership simply HAS NO SAY IN MAKING THE MEMBERSHIP RULES, or at least no members that I know."

 

You know 1/100th of 1% of the BSA membership. The problem isn't that volunteers don't have a say, the problem is that most unit volunteers have a very limited exposure to scouting beyond there council boundaries. That is neither a good or bad thing...it is just a fact. This is a huge organization. You may never personally meet a volunteer with gold shoulder tabs or COR on the National Executive Board but that doesn't mean they don't exist, just that your role in scouting has not brought you in contact with them.

 

I have met a dozen or more and I am sure there are some on the forum, or lurking, who have met more or may even be one.

[firstpusk]

I don't travel in the rarified circles that BobWhite does, but I know several volunteers that have served on national committees. The ones that I know are quite approachable and reasonable individuals. If you have concerns about specific issues, find out who is serving and talk with them.

[SR540Beaver]

I have nothing against doing a little leg work and trying to find out who these people are. However, most councils have newsletters and websites. Would it kill them to list the people who are "representing" us so we could have access to them. I vote for my Congressman. I'd sure hate to think that there is some nameless, faceless man sitting in DC "representing" ME without my knowledge or approval.

[Bob White]

Ah, there is the rub. You misunderstand the structure of scouting. These folks do not represent "us". They are selected from us to share their skills and experience to improve and support the program for us to deliver. The BSA is not "your" organization. We are volunteer deliverers of the program. We work for the chartered organizations as unit leaders, we work for the community of chartered organizations as District volunters. We work for the non-profit corporation that is the council, as council level volunteers. We work for the non-profit corporation of the BSA as regional/national volunteers.

 

You are selected for various levels of service based on your skills and Scout spririt.

 

We do not own the program. It is ours only in the sense that we accept and practice its methods, aims, mission and values. We are the servant leaders of the BSA. That's a good thing.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[PatBB]

I believe that organizations exist for their members, not vice versa.

What Bob describes has given Scouting the current Politburo of a National Council where new members are handpicked to continue the policies of the Clique in a dictatorial manner. In contrast, the Girl Scouts USA & Camp Fire have leadership that is accountable to the members & respects their viewpoints in the decision-making process. In contrast, the BSA reminds me of the kids in "Mean Girls" where someone is ostracized just because the bully ringleader or Queen Bee says so.

[Bob White]

Scouting does exist to serve its members. The YOUTH members. Adults volunteers are just one of the tools used to do that. Boys were scouting for years before the BSA existed. It was created and organized with adults to be able deliver the program to a larger youth base with a foundation established to last for many years.

 

110-million members and 94 years later and still going strong. i think the method of administration that has gotten us here has worked just fine. Don't you?

[packsaddle]

Bob White,

You are correct, I don't know any that sit on committees. I am still curious though:

How many youth members do sit on committees?

How are they chosen?

What are the committees?

If I have a youth member who wants to participate at this level, how do I advise them to proceed?

I will ask my pros to see how their answers compare with yours.

 

However, none of this answers the question of why BSA does not articulate a clear policy on dissent. It is the question I was attempting to answer, and I could be wrong about my answer. What's the correct one?

[Bob White]

I think you should discuss it with the Scout Executive in your local council.

 

Basically when you make your cause more important than the BSA program, you will be granted more time to pursue that which you have chosen to be more important, by relieving you of your burden of BSA membership.

 

I other words when the the unit, local council, or nation council feel you are a detraction from the efforts and resources of the program they can rescind your membership at their will.

 

Specifically "the national officers agree that "conduct of both Scouts and Scouters must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law" and that "membership is contingent upon one's willingness to accept the values and standards espoused by the Boy Scouts of America,"

 

Our job is to live the scouting program. It is a big challenge and it is a personal commitment. And it is not one everyone can fulfill.

[SR540Beaver]

BW,

 

Yes, yes, yes.....I already know and understand the process. Regardless, peolpe are selected for these committees in part because it is believed that they are "representative" of Scouts and Scouters throughout the organization. While I would feel proud if I were selected to serve on a committee, I would also be humbled by it. My desire would not be to get my licks in for all the things I think should be done. A scout is helpful to others. My desire would be to talk to others in scouting and carry their ideas and concerns along with mine. Since I can't talk to everyone, it would be useful if they knew how to get hold of me if they wished to.

[packsaddle]

OK, While I'm waiting for an answer from the SE, does anyone ELSE know the answer? Bob White isn't going to supply the info...if he knows it.

It is interesting to know these things and also what parts of the country are represented by their (the youth members) participation on the committees. So far only one respondent (I think) has mentioned knowledge of committee members but didn't mention whether they were youth or not. Anyone else?