BSA and Dissent

[packsaddle]

Laurie, your question is a good one. NJ covers part of the answer in the manner he asks his questions. From what I have learned in this forum and from what I have learned directly from BSA, there is no good answer for you. BSA, as some would say, needs no line drawn for you to cross. They can revoke your membership at any time. Period. It might be as a result of bad words...or bad hair. BSA is free to associate, or disassociate at will. Furthermore nothing demands an explanation from them.

 

Bob White's post goes to the essence of the issue posed by Hunt at the beginning. The action taken against Unitarian boys demonstrates that Bob White is quite correct in his assessment.

 

The conflict I sense in Hunt's original post is one I feel as well. If BSA is chartered by our Congress and if BSA's program purports to teach and promote the principles of our Constitution (ie, through the citizenship MBs, etc.), it seems to be a conflict when its conduct goes against those same principles it claims to promote. The judgement that "association" trumps "expression" is evidently the rationale that prevails today.

 

Edited part:

Bob White must have hit the submit button moments (3 minutes, 12 seconds actually) after I did. I do want to comment on one of his points. The test of whether or not certain speech does damage to the program (or similar tests) is quite subjective. Hence, no clear line is drawn. As you compose your thoughts you may also consider the absence of such clarity, and the potential consequences of your speech. You may detect a 'squelch' button. You are correct.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Bob White]

"What I would like to know, Bob, is where the other "rules" that you cite are published."

 

Most, if not all of the the policies I refer to on this forum are found in a few easy to access references. You have seen me refer to them by name and page on many occasions. they include the Insignia Guide 2004-2005, the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual, the Unit Money Earning application, The Guide to Safe Scouting, the Youth and Adult Membership Applications.

 

 

The position I referred to in this thread is found in a position paper that was posted on the national website www.bsa.org

 

The BSA National Office and the National Council publish position papers and other references at that website. Also like many other scouters, because of my volunteer responsibilities I have had access to information and scouting news at various national activities.

 

"Specifically, where does it say that if you disagree, it must be in a "constructive manner" and "through the channels that exist in the BSA where your concerns can be addressed?" And where is the term "constructive manner" defined?"

 

I don't know that it is. As you will note the information was not in quotes and did not contain a specific reference, but was in my own words. I tried to convey the situation as clearly as I could so that all could comprehend it. I am sorry if I was not clear enough for you.

 

"And what if going through channels produces no change, as it has (not) on the issue of gays?"

 

Whoever guaranteed that just because you voiced an opinion that a change would take place? You don't truly expect the BSA to change direction every time someone disagrees? I have found the BSA committees and and personnel both professional and volunteer always listen and usually consider, but that does not guarantee they will change anything. This is a huge organization and it cannot, and will not, turn on a dime.

 

"Am I, for example, allowed to write a letter to the editor, criticizing a policy of the BSA and calling for it to be changed?"

 

As a non-member sure, say what you want. As a member? I wouldn't suggest it. The local paper is certainly not a scouting channel. I can see how that kind of behavior is not productive as no one reading that letter has the authority to change anything in scouting. Why would you right the editor? Easy. To put social pressure on the BSA. Social extortion as it were. But when all is said and done your shortsightedness failed to see that all you did was damage the local program support in your community. That is certainly not productive. Again, I wouldn't recommend such an action if you are interested in retaining your membership.

 

I am really amused by your thought that if you ask for something the BSA must say yes to you. You are welcome to disagree and you have several levels of the BSA to convey your ideas and opinions to. Often these ideas lead to effective improvements as the program grows. But sometimes the answer is no.

 

"Am I allowed to post to an Internet web set criticizing a policy and calling for it to be changed? What if I use my real name in the post? What if I don't? Does it matter? Can I have my membership revoked for what I have posted in this forum over the past 2.5 years?"

 

Do you feel that what you have written is damaging to the program? Has it damaged the program?

 

"Should my membership be revoked, Bob?"

 

What leads you to believe I have that authority?

What I would do, or want, has no relevance. Nor do I have any authority over you.

 

 

LAURA

You can address you concerns to your local District committee, Council Committee, Scout Executive, National Council, National Office, just to name a few.

 

But whether these are volunteers of professionals, don't go in as so many posters do here with a whine and gripe but no facts or basic training. Organize your thoughts, do some research. Anybody can see a problem, have a plan for a solution. And unlike NJ, understand that things do not happen at the drop of a hat, and that sometimes the answer is no.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[boleta]

It is fairly clear from the Forum that MANY scouters fail to follow the rules of BSA, either through ignorance or intent. A SM not allowing advancement for arbitrary reasons-"your son is not assertive enough", comes to mind in a recent thread. Or maybe a Scoutmaster saying "in our troop the official uniform is a pair of blue jeans for the pants". It would seem to be a rare event that a Scouter is dismissed from BSA, unless a truly egregious violation occurs.

[evmori]

"Specifically, where does it say that if you disagree, it must be in a "constructive manner" and "through the channels that exist in the BSA where your concerns can be addressed?" And where is the term "constructive manner" defined?"

I don't know that it is. As you will note the information was not in quotes and did not contain a specific reference, but was in my own words. I tried to convey the situation as clearly as I could so that all could comprehend it. I am sorry if I was not clear enough for you.

Hmmm, from the original post

2. You are required to disagree in a constructive manner through the channels that exist in the BSA where your concerns can be addressed.

it sounds like if we disagree with BSA policy we can't post our disagreement here or talk about it in groups, etc. according to Mr. White. So I guess all of us who disagree with the smallest BSA policy and have posted it here should be kick out of Scouting? Someone please tell Mr. White this is here since he has squelched my posts. I would send him a PM regarding this but as I stated in another thread I refuse since he posted what I sent him in a PM on this board.

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

Well, BSA's press release suggests they don't kick out people even if they express their views in ways embarassing to BSA, as David Lipson did. I didn't find anything on bsa.org or anywhere else to the contrary. I would expect BSA, however, to expell somebody who denigrated, insulted, or rididuled the organization publicly--but that's a far cry from expressing an opinion that a particular policy should be changed. Has anybody actually been expelled for simply expressing views?

[Bob White]

Yes, there was a long time volunteer removed in this council for publicly speaking out as a Council member who disagreed with the membership rules.

 

I stand by the accuracy of my post. I welcome you to share it in its entirity with your Scout executive and see if it is not correct.

 

 

[evmori]

Even though there is nothing in writing regarding disagreeing with the BSA, Bob White is correct! So it follows that if you disagree with Bob White you disagree with the BSA! I think not~

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Laurie]

Hunt, do you feel that Mr. Lipson's public statements to the press agaisnt a current policy of the BSA helped or hurt the council? Quite frankly I'm surprised at the support National has given him. I would not expect the same support had it been me, not even now that it has been given to someone else. I'm also not sure I would deserve support because if I were to speak publicly against policy, it would be fair for any person to question my commitment to the organization, my motives in speaking publicly of them, and to even suggest I leave. That doesn't make thinking differently wrong; it might make what I do with what I think to be wrong though. I have always believed that when I become part of an organization, I should do so only if I agree with it and can live by its policies. To do otherwise creates a conflict, and for me personally, it's just not worth it.

[Eamonn]

Have been thinking about this and am having a problem with the word Dissent.

Dissent as in "I beg to differ." Is OK.

Dissent the act of protesting. I think needs looked at.

Dissent the act of expressing opposition through action and words. Has no place in Scouting.

Eamonn

[eisely]

No organization can or should tolerate public statements by employees or members that bring discredit on the organization. I would not expect a business corporation to keep an engineer on its payroll if that individual convenes a press conference to claim in public that the corporation's products are defective. The decision to keep such a person around in this instance has nothing to do with the merits of the claim or position taken.

 

I too am somewhat uncomfortable that I don't know where the boundaries are in BSA. I think the answer is along BW's argument, that there are no bright lines, just big grey areas of what will be tolerated and what will not.

 

A few years ago there was a highly regarded scouter in Marin County here in la la land who was expelled because of the highly public positions he took on the gay issue. He was a scouter who had worked with the Cozza kid. I forget his name. That was the first instance I knew about where a scouter was removed solely for the public position he took on controversial issues regarding BSA. I am not about to say that the Marin council was wrong in what they did, but it should put people on notice.

 

Nobody has revoked free speech. Any of us can take a soap box to any street corner and say anything we like about BSA. We cannot expect to retain our membership in the organization if we do that sort of thing. I don't think anybody has ever been threatened with removal, much less removed, for expressing their views in front of other scouters, in either an informal or formal setting.

[PatBB]

He was expelled because the Council objected to his 'using a kid' (Steven Cozza, age 13) to further his agenda.

Dave was 68 y/o & had been a Cub, Eagle, & then a Scouter his whole adult life. I think he deserved more respect for his experience. I would have respected Gregg Shields if he had challenged Mr. Rice to run against him for the Presidency/Chairmanship of BSA.

[Twocubdad]

What are you guys afraid of?

 

Is BSA so fragile that it cannot withstand the thoughtful disagreement of its members? Has Mr. Lipson's statements in Philly caused the collapse of the program? It their position so tenuous that Merlyn is going to cause the house of cards to crash?

 

This is basic democracy in action. When someone complains or dissents from the majority opinion, those in majority should rethink their position in light of the opposing arguments. Either they amend their position to strengthen it or conclude they were correct all along. Either way, the policy is better for having gone through the exercise. How long does it last? As long as it needs to. Yes, it's a messy process, but so was the last Presidential election.

 

And all this "proper channel" and "keep it in-house" is a bunch of hooey conjured up by bureaucrats and PR flacks whose jobs are easier if they don't have to deal with the fallout. Of course there are limits to how one should voice their dissent. Common courtesy tells you that disrupting a meeting or accosting the Scout Executive is over the line. But how does a thoughtful, well crafted letter to the editor hurt? Bob calls such letters "social extortion." He says they are unproductive because the readers of the paper are not in a position to effect a change to BSA policy. I disagree. Many Scouters and Scout families read the paper and may be moved to voice their opinions through their units and councils. Many BSA and/or United Way contributors read the paper. They vote with their check books. Members of chartered organizations read papers and may influence their CORs who have real votes.

 

Threatening the expulsion of those who voice their conscious and try to change policies they disagree with is despicable, un-Scoutlike and un-American.

 

"If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them. Trust your own beliefs and obey your conscience when you know you are right."

[Bob White]

"If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them."

 

Exactly the BSA's point I believe. They expect you to behave "in an orderly manner" as you promised! That does not mean to publicly air your protests or whine to the masses. They expect you to organize your thoughts and present them throught the avenues available to you in the BSA "in an orderly manner".

 

While we are using the Law to support outr positions let's look at the fact that voluntarily joining a program and then protesting and complaining in public about values and policies that yopu said you would support is not being Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly or Courteous, to the people and program you asked to to join.

 

The BSA's position is not a threat. It is their right to determine the membership of their private organization.

 

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Bob, you have evaded my questions and instead attributed to me thoughts and opinions that I never expressed and that are not mine. But you do that on a regular basis, so it is no surprise.

 

This is to everybody else:

 

I do agree that writing letters to the editor expressing ones disagreement with BSA policies is likely to get one tossed out. Whether that should be the case or not is a different issue, and probably irrelevant.

 

I personally have never "publicly" protested or questioned any policy of the BSA. (I don't count anonymous postings online, which I realize is another issue(s), but for me it doesn't count.) The reason I refrain from doing so is that in the "real world" -- the one in which people can connect my name to my "self" and more importantly to my son -- it just isn't worth it. I am not in Scouting to "make a point." I am in Scouting for my son, and like most of the rest of everybody here, got "drawn in" by the opportunity to simultaneously do something good for my son and for other peoples' sons, and for the community in general. I do not protest in the "real world" because while I do not think it would detract from "the program" itself, I do think it probably would detract from my ability to participate in it, because it would probably impact on the way some other leaders, and some parents, view me and relate to me. I have no need to be known as "that guy who wants homosexuals going on camping trips with our sons," and I know that some people WOULD look at it that way. (Some people, of course, would not. I have had conversations about this issue with exactly two people connected with Scouting (not counting my father and brother), and both were initiated by the other person, and I responded with my opinion because I was sure the other person was going to keep it in confidence. In one case, the person said he favored the policy and I said I didn't, and we didn't argue about it, it was just a matter of interest how each of us felt. About six months later he told me he had changed his mind, we never got into why, and it really didn't matter. The other person strongly implied to a group including me and 2 other adults that he thought it would be better if the BSA didn't have the "no gay" policy, I said I agreed, and that was it.)

 

Now I can hear some people thinking, ok, if he's not in Scouting to "make a point," then why does he bother posting here on controversial issues? Here's why. Having found myself re-involved in Scouting, I shortly thereafter went online to find resources that would help me be a better leader, and while I did find those, in the same places I found forums on which controversial Scouting-related issues were being discussed. Before that happened, while I was of course aware that lawsuits were going on, I was really just barely aware of the "gay issue" and had only a very mild opinion on it. After reading a number of posts, that changed, and I realized that I felt that the policy was not only wrong, but detrimental to Scouting, and all of the discussion and debate and personal attacks on me -- as well as the statements of those with whom I agree -- has only strengthened my conclusion that my position is correct. (Actually when I first got "into" this subject on another forum, my original position was that no unit should be permitted to exclude people based on sexual orientation, but before I even got to this forum, I was persuaded that "local option" is the way to go.)

 

So, here, online, was a way to "protest" if you will... maybe change a few minds... probably not have a great deal of impact otherwise... vent a little... and NOT endanger my relationships with any "real world" Scouters or Scout parents. And, of course, I also participate in the portions of this forum that are unrelated to controversial issues.

[Bob White]

NJ

Reviewing your post, and mine, it appears I answered each of the questions you posed. Did I miss one? Or is the problem the same one you have with the BSA? That is to say.... you just don't like the answer.

 

If what I believed was so contrary to organization's values, that saying it in public would get me removed from membership in that organization...one would have to ask, what real value does the membership brings to me, and vice versa. The only answer is in your conscience, and in your willingness to claim publicly, membership in a group that privately you do not hold with.

 

I could not force that kind of hypocrisy on myself, but that is my personal choice, just as it is yours.