BSA and race

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob doesn't have to follow his own rules. Of course, nobody else has to, either.

 

Hey Bob, when Explorer Posts were part of the BSA pre-1998, was it "good" for fire department Explorer Posts to illegally exclude atheists? Remember, the Boy Scouts didn't own the Posts, the charter partners did, and the BSA expected fire departments to practice religious discrimination, even though they're a goverment agency.

 

So Bob, do you think fire departments should exclude atheists from their Explorer programs?

 

[boleta]

Race, Religion, Sexual orientation. They are all intertwined when it comes to descrimination. Until recently, mixed race couples could not intermarry in my state. Now they can. Many here think Jews are damned and going to hell because they don't accept the clear water. Some day, gays will be allowed to marry (maybe then they will stop having sex).

National has defined the BSA as requiring a duty to God and country. They consider homosexuality as being incompatible with being morally straight. This is policy. There is nothing there about race.

Merlyn, I also object to the characterization of others that are different as somehow evil or criminal. But, I still don't understand why atheists would want to belong to an organization that is clearly not for you (including Venturing). So why argue about it? I have been involved in scouting since 1960. I agree with many in this thread that the issue of race is a very passive one, mostly involving volunteers.

[Bob White]

It was not, and is not, their Explorer program. It was, and is, their Explorer post. The Program belonged in the past to the BSA, it now belongs to Learning For Life.

 

Was it right for a private organization (the BSA) to be able to determine its own membership qualifications? According to the Constitution of the United States, the elected officials that made the laws, and to the United States Supreme Court, YES.

 

But their opinion probably doesn't carry much weight with you does it? After all to accept the ruling of the Supreme Court you would have to acknowledge them as a greater authority than yourself, and that appears to be the core of your difficulty.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fuzzy Bear]

A Scout is trustworthy, loyal , helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

 

A hijacked moment to reflect on our Law.

 

please continue....

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hey Bob, when the BSA expected government agencies like police and fire departments to exclude atheists from their Explorer Posts, was that "good"? Was it honest?

 

You don't seem to recognize the dishonesty of the BSA.

[Bob White]

When the police and fire departments wanted to encourage young people to follow in their missions and they voluntarily chose to adopt the Scouting program as their youth outreach program, I think they did it with eyes wide open and an understanding of the values of the scouting program, especially since many had been scouts themselves.

 

And I think the thought that the community you live in and that serves you and deserves to be served by you, is based on values that were shared with the human race by its creator, makes you feel left out and bitter.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

When the police and fire departments wanted to encourage young people to follow in their missions and they voluntarily chose to adopt the Scouting program as their youth outreach program, I think they did it with eyes wide open and an understanding of the values of the scouting program, especially since many had been scouts themselves.

 

Only the few that decided to break the law and practice illegal religious discrimination; the rest would insist that they did not discriminate, even though the BSA would require that they do, just as the principal of Cambridge-Isanti High School insisted that his school's Venturing program admitted atheists, even though he himself was the chair of the Three Rivers District of the Viking Council and should have known better. When he found out that his Venturing Crew couldn't admit atheists or gays, they had no choice but to drop the program.

 

And, by the way, I think you wear your religion on your sleeve because you find atheists threatening; you don't want to be reminded that your religion with talking animals and magic sticks is just as ridiculous as the myths surrounding Zeus or Odin.

[Hunt]

Hey, you're all hijacking the thread I started! What I wanted to know (and still want to know) is when and how, historically, did BSA stop allowing COs to discriminate on the basis of race. The story of LDS is interesting--although even there, the troops didn't exclude blacks from membership, just from top leadership. Were there, in fact, scout troops that explicitly excluded blacks from membership, and did BSA condone or allow this? Or was there just de facto discrimination? Did BSA at some point issue a statement that it would not charter units with COs that practiced racial discrimination?

[NJCubScouter]

OGE says (and I will leave in the last sentence just to preserve the "flavor"):

 

So what we are saying is by looking back we can see that the general attitudes and behavior of the BSA volunters reflected the general attitudes and behavior of American society overall and with changing times, these attitudes changed.

 

Who would have guessed?

 

Ignoring the sarcasm at the end there, "we" are saying exactly that, with one exception (well two, but I'm only including Scouters in my calculations.) I think that "we" (meaning Hunt, TrailPounder, NWScouter, OGE, Eamonn, and now me, a pretty diverse group) would all accept the statement that "looking back we can see that the general attitudes and behavior of the BSA volunters reflected the general attitudes and behavior of American society overall and with changing times, these attitudes changed."

 

The one exception is BobWhite, who I'll get to in a minute.

 

Some of the above writers may not agree with the following, but I personally applaud the BSA for the way it reflected society's changing attitudes toward race. It wasn't always easy. My father has told me stories about being a Scoutmaster in the late 1940's and having to tell a reluctant CR that a black young man who wished to transfer from a collapsing troop was either going to be allowed to do so, or they would have to find a new Scoutmaster. "Even" in a racially diverse city in northern New Jersey, it was not obvious to everybody that a black youth should be accepted for membership. That has much more to do with society than with the BSA, but as much as some people try to deny it, the BSA is part of our society.

 

On the other hand, is it true (as Bob suggests) that the BSA was ahead of the "curve" on race? I don't think so. Others have given examples of why not. My personal observations suggest "not." It has been noted that racially segregated troops did persist in the South into the late 60's (some 15 years after Brown v. Board of Education.) Also, though this is more superficial, can it really be a coincidence that the Boy Scout Handbook did not depict ANY non-whites until the 1972 edition? Did the artists and illustrators not know how to find a black young man to be a model? Or did they just not think of including a black person? (That is what I think, and that has implications for the way Scouting, and society, used to be. Look at old magazine ads for Coke or cars or beer or just about anything else and until the very late 60's you wouldn't have known that there were any black people in the U.S., either.)

 

The point is that we can recognize that the BSA did "catch up" (or if you prefer, "keep up") with society, without drawing a negative conclusion about the BSA.

 

As I said, though, none of this business of the BSA reflecting society, and changing with the times, is ok with BobWhite. Bob has to insist that the BSA is always ahead of the curve. And there's a good reason for that, because if anyone were to believe that the BSA is part of society, reflects society and changed with it on the issue of race, well, they might just expect Scouting to change with society on a more current issue. And Bob can't accept anything that might lead to that kind of thinking.

[evmori]

NJ,

I would concur that the BSA is NOT ahead of the curve. If anything, they are behind the curve. It seems , like other organizations, no societal changes are made unless they have to be i.e. lawsuits, etc.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I think BSA was ahead of the curve, in that it was racially integrated as an overall organization from the beginning, even if many units were segregated. Also, from what I've also read about the LDS situation, BSA helped pressure the church into making a change. But to repeat, to really understand where it was in the curve, you'd have to know whether there was a point that BSA made a specific decision to no longer allow units to discriminate. Bob hasn't exactly denied that this ever happened--but it seems that even if this was "always" policy, at some point BSA began to enforce it. It would be very interesting to know how that happened.

[Bob White]

It is obvious NJ that you have done vast research into the history of the BSA and its relationship into the changing social values of our history.

 

Please share a list wih us of all the other youth organizations between 1911 and 1950 that you found invited and accepted minority races in addition to the BSA.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

So let's summarize:

 

Since its inception, BSA has allowed members of all races. Until 1974 national policy was silent on matters of race. Local units could and did exclude racial minorities if they chose to do so. A national non-discrimination policy was adopted in 1974 as part of a settlement between BSA and the NAACP.

 

Can everyone agree with that?

[Bob White]

TwoCub would you agree that councils and units had integrated long before that date?

[evmori]

twocub,

I would agree with your statement.

 

Bob,

If you mean did councils have units with black Scouts yes. If you mean were there units with both black & white Scouts, very few.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10