BSA and race

[Hunt]

In another thread, it was stated that BSA has never discriminated racially, and has not changed its position on race. It was my understanding that in the 1960's, BSA decided that it would no longer allow CO's to discriminate on the basis of race--and in fact that it had a confrontation with LDS over the issue. So although BSA didn't directly discriminate, it allowed CO's to do so--in the same way it still allows units to restrict membership to co-religionists.

[Hunt]

rest of message: I couldn't find on-line an official (or even much unofficial) history confirming this. Does anyone have any more detailed knowledge?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

Here are some:

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/lds-top.html

(second article)

 

This has the same information; search for "scouts"

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/black_1.htm

...

In 1974 the Mormon doctrine of discrimination against blacks brought the Boy Scouts into a serious confrontation with the NAACP. The Boy Scouts of America do not discriminate because of religion or race, but Mormon-sponsored troops did have a policy of discrimination. On July 18, 1974, the Salt Lake Tribune reported: "A 12-year-old boy scout has been denied a senior patrol leadership in his troop because he is black, Don L. Cope, black ombudsman for the state, said Wednesday....

"The ombudsman said Mormon 'troop policy is that in order for a scout to become a patrol leader, he must be a deacon's quorum president in the LDS Church. Since the boy cannot hold the priesthood, he cannot become a patrol leader.'"

The Mormon leaders apparently realized that they could never prevail in this matter and a compromise was worked out:

"Shortly before Boy Scout officials were to appear in Federal Court Friday morning on charges of discrimination, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a policy change which will allow black youths to be senior patrol leaders, a position formerly reserved for white LDS youths in troops sponsored by the church....

"An LDS Church spokesman said Friday under the 'guidelines set forth in the statement, a young man other than president of the deacons quorum could (now) become the senior patrol leader if he is better qualified.'" (Salt Lake Tribune, August 3, 1974)

Mormon President Spencer W. Kimball "had been subpoenaed to testify" in the suit (Ibid., Oct. 23), but on Nov. 7, 1974 the Tribune reported:"A suit claiming discrimination against blacks by the Boy Scouts of America was dismissed Wednesday in federal court...all parties to the suit..signed an agreement stating the alleged discrimination 'has been discontinued.'"

 

[LovetoCamp]

A sign of great things to come, there weren't too many black kids involved in Scouting in Utah prior to the 1970's, but when the issue arose, the LDS Church compromised, modernized their rules, and Scouting in the Great Northwest has been thriving ever since.

 

Problem? There is no problem.(This message has been edited by Trail Pounder)

[Bob White]

Please note that it was the LDS who changed their policy not the BSA, since the BSA did not have a policy that discriminated based on race.

[LovetoCamp]

Didn't sound like it was based on race anyway. It was based on the youth reaching a plateau in their church as a qualifier for office. Would it not be the same thing as a youth being required to complete CCD before holding the SPL office in a Catholic Church? So, this is a 30 year old non-issue.

[NWScouter]

Trail Pounder it had all to do with race. At that time by LDS Church doctrine, no black could reach their highest priesthood level because they were unworthy by the taint of having dark skin. Many university football teams refused even to play BYU because their black and other team members refused to play. In the early 70s their leadership had a revelation that changed the doctrine.

 

Also, the National office of the BSA allowed southern councils to have and require white and color troops, activities and camps through the 60s.

 

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

So what we are saying is by looking back we can see that the general attitudes and behavior of the BSA volunters reflected the general attitudes and behavior of American society overall and with changing times, these attitudes changed.

 

Who would have guessed?

[Bob White]

What is being completely unappreciated and unrecognized by Hunt, NWScouter and others is that the BSA was one of the first if not the first organization to open it's doors to the black community as well as to other minorities of its day with black members as early as 1911 Decades before the civil rights movement and even long before other organization such as the YMCA recognized the rights of blacks to participate.

 

BSA did not cause the problem of segregation nor did it teach or support it. It was however a powerful defender of human rights and lead the way for every other organization to recognize and welcome minority members.

 

Segregated troops existed in the north prior to the south because of deep rooted social beliefs of the south not due to policies of the BSA. Rather than looking over our shoulder at the past and trying to find fault with th BSA we should be looking with pride at the efforts made by the BSA to get the communities that had a scouting program at that time to change its society to meet the values of scouting rather than changing scouting to meet the temporary moral view of the times.

 

The values of scouting are no less relevant today, and still we should look to set the example to society of how it needs the values of scouting rather than change scouting to the transient vales of the community.

 

http://www.wfu.edu/campuslife/phfund/race_boy_scouts.html

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ah, so discrimination against atheists is good, eh? Just like discrimination against Jews used to be.

[Eamonn]

My knowledge about how things used to be here in the USA regarding race and civil rights is not as good as it could be.

I think that OGE has hit the nail on the head, even if we were wrong we have come a long way and we are still working at it.

Times and attitudes change. When I was a Scout the then correct way of disposing of cans was to burn them, bash them and bury them. Today we are doing our best to put Leave No Trace into practice.

Also when I was a Scout there wasn't that many Scouts that were non-white, by the time I became a Scoutmaster the troop was less then 40% white.

Those of us who have been through the 21 Century Wood Badge know that Diversity is not only a session but also a ticket item.

In the small town in which I live I'm the only person in town who talks with an English accent.

Yes there have been people who thought that I didn't pay taxes and I was sending boxes of money back home. Yes there have been people who have said that I ought to go back home. In fact one person who said this as a joke was our present Scout Exec. The other staff didn't think that it was funny and he apologized. Sure we are all going to mess up at times. We have some fairly stupid ideas about people and race, we want all people who look Japanese to be good at karate, the Irish to be big drinkers, the Americans to wear ten gallon hats, plait pants and white shoes and the English to carry umbrellas. Still I have yet to see where the BSA discriminates. My Scout Oath talks about helping other people it doesn't mention race or creed heck we are willing to go out of our way to help people who think that the BSA is rotten to the core.

Eamonn.

[Bob White]

"Ah, so discrimination against atheists is good, eh? Just like discrimination against Jews used to be."

 

No. Discrimination against atheists in the BSA is good since they support a belief in God and atheism does not.

 

Think of it in more positive terms Merlyn. Rather than say a Fire Department discriminates against pyromaniacs, lets say that the goal of firefighting is contrast to pyromania and so to mingle them serves no constructive purpose for either party. Could the Fire Department change their values to embrace those of the pyromaniacs and yet retain their goals and values? Of course not.

 

Scouting's beliefs and atheism's lack of beliefs are in direct conflict. Can they be merged and still retain each others specifc goals and values. No. So out of respect for each other each should be left alone to pursue their unique and specific points of view.

[NJCubScouter]

Bob, I notice that in another thread, you analogize gay people to thieves, and in this thread you analogize atheists to pyromaniacs. Isn't it significant that thieves and pyromaniacs (at least those who have set fire to property of others) are criminals, while atheists and gay people are not? (Or in case of gay people, not any more?) That seems pretty significant to me.

[Bob White]

NJ if you were a scout leader what significance would you put on the fact that you take an oath to do your Duty to God, and to be reverent to God and that atheists by the very definition of their name, are incapable of meeting these requirements specified in the BSA program.

 

 

And by the way this thread was about race not religion please refrain from continued hijacking.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NJCubScouter]

Bob says:

 

NJ if you were a scout leader...

 

If I were? Why don't we just assume for the sake of argument that I am, just like I assume for the sake of argument that you are, ok?

 

...what significance would you put on the fact that you take an oath to do your Duty to God, and to be reverent to God and that atheists by the very definition of their name, are incapable of meeting these requirements specified in the BSA program.

 

The significance would be that avowed atheists (real atheists, not just kids who are confused) are not permitted to be members of the BSA. I don't think I've ever questioned that policy, in fact I have made clear that I don't oppose it. The language of the Scout Oath and Law, and the Declaration of Religious Principles is pretty clear, though you think it's ok for the BSA to obey the latter only when the majority of the national board feels like its a good idea.

 

I wasn't talking about the BSA policy anyway, Bob. I was talking about YOUR need to analogize people you don't like, but who are not breaking the law, with criminals.

 

 

And by the way this thread was about race not religion please refrain from continued hijacking.

 

Um, excuse me, I was the THIRD person to use the word "atheist" in this thread. The second was, wait, let me check my notes here, yes, the second was YOU, Bob. So who are you to accuse me of hijacking? (Not that that's a capital crime last time I checked, anyway. I'm pretty sure most of the threads I've started have been "hijacked" in one way or another.)