packsaddle Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 I have always wondered why a child would be punished because of a parent's belief. I know atheist (some might be agnostic) parents who send or take their children to local churches of different flavors because they recognize the need for these young people to make informed decisions for themselves. I'm not certain but I believe that a few of the boys are in scouts (not this unit, though). It seems that a boy could conform to the rules while the parent didn't. Is this not the case?(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunt Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 A couple of points: 1. I think Rooster's argument that morality is only firm when it's based on supernatural revelation just takes us back to my original question--why would a believer in the true religion think that followers of false religions had the right morality? Certainly, the followers of Baal didn't. Also, a dogmatic follower of atheistic communism would seem to me to meet the test. 2. I don't think anybody here is advocating a boy lying about his convictions to join the BSA. The issue is whether BSA could alter this requirement and remain true to its basic values. My problem with discussing this issue has been that it's difficult to understand exactly what this value is when it's not linked to any particular religion. This discussion has shed some light on the subject, I think, but I'm not fully convinced either way. On this issue, I'm not a dissenter from BSA's position--I just see some questions that are worth discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Certainly, the followers of Baal didn't. And boy were they proved wrong! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzy Bear Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Ok, I will extend this one just once. If a follower of Baal wanted to join the BSA today, then would that person's beliefs qualify him for membership. He believes in a higher power even though it has clearly been shown to be false. Some would say that he qualifies on the "higher power issue". Some would say that the followers of Baal were closer to a form of witchcraft and used human sacrifice to appease their deity, so he would be exempted from the organization. Most of us just would not have a clue. Or if we were to make this into an issue of determining "the Good", it would only take us down a large and winding river that has no end and no final answers. The BSA is more cleaver than all of that because they do not wish to make these determinations for a person. They merely want the individual to ask the (God) question and seek the answer. If God is the person/entity that we believe he is then he will be speaking to that person on a regular basis. Growth will occur and that which is false will be consumed. In other words, God lives, is real and will answer those mind numbing questions for you. The BSA just wants you to engage and truth will happen. If you have decided otherwise, then Scouting is simply not for you. You have already found answers that is of your own making and that is your right as an individual. The rest of us are still searching and need something else, which of course, is God. FB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 FB You hit it right on the head. Instead of saying Baal, the Scout need only substitute the word God. He would successfully answer every question posed concerning duty to God and reverence (unless this religion did not allow for the respect of the beliefs of others). No one would know the difference and he would complete the requirements for his Oath and Law. The real problem is when the True Believers view all other religions as just another Baalism (?) and then have a problem with the Scout's duty to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScouterPaul Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 I have until know stayed out of this thread because I would be in over my head. However, a conversation I had last week, during summer camp, with a new scout got me to thinking. The question has been asked why would a parent put their son in a program that is built around "duty to God" and "reverence" if they didn't believe in God. The scout in question is 11 years old, an analytical and inquisitive kid. Walking back to the camp site after attending Vespers he asked me if I went to church. I was honest and said no. He then asked why and I said that I believed God was all around us and not just behind the walls of a church. I asked him if his family went to church and he said no. I asked why and he replied that his parents didn't believe in God. I asked him if he did and his answer was "I don't know, I don't see enough proof". Our conversation continued along the lines of do you believe in a higher power ect. I finally asked him if he believed in Heaven and he said yes. I know some of you will disagree with me but his answer told me that deep down he did believe in God. During family night I told his father about our conversation and asked him if the religious aspect of scouts bothered him. He replied that it was only part of scouts and that the values, skills, friends and experiences his son would have outweighs the regligious aspect. He also stated that a person's religious beliefs are personal and that he was happy with his son questioning God and hoped that when he was mature enough he would make his own decision regarding God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 ScouterPaul, exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Boleta, Each religion that claims to be the only way to God is mutually exclusive of every other religion. This shows an arrogance that says "only I can be right." This is either a very unenlightened understanding of the Christian faith or a purposeful misrepresentation of those who embrace Christianity. In the vast majority of cases, per my lifes experience, those who claim to know the one and only way to God are not trying to prove their superiority they are not arrogant. Quite the opposite, most of these folks are very humble. They share their faith with others - because they have a heart for those who do not know and understand what they have come to know and understand. Many true believers know full well that the world does not what to hear their message. Yet, they will share their faith with very inhospitable people, because the God they love demands that they do. They strive to fully submit to His will. Out of humility, they thankful and joyfully accept the gift of salvation provided through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. I find your accusation of arrogance to be very much off the mark, and in fact a distortion of reality. There is only one Supreme Being and God is the same for all. Too bad the true believers don't recognize or accept this Your statement reeks with hypocrisy. You judge others to be arrogant (because of their confidence in who God is), and yet you declare just as boldly that God is NOT who we recognize Him to be. Granted, one of us is wrong. However, describing true believers (to use your words) as arrogant, is not only wrong its hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 So.....is Baal worship a true religion or isn't it? Are there any Baal worshipers left somewhere? Are you sure we're not talking about a Star Trek episode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God..." I wonder if it matters whether worshipping Baal is a modern practice or not, or even if it considered a true religion. When it comes to the BSA, isn't the bottom line that each Scout and Scouter be able to say for him/herself: I am doing my duty to God? This whole discussion seems to be more of a debate of which way of doing duty to God is best versus whether or not a person is simply doing his/her duty to God. My faith defines who I am, so I can't remove it or put it aside. However, I will not using Scout events or meetings as a time to preach either. To this day, most people in the units I serve have no clue what church I go to or what my faith is, but they all know that I believe that being reverent is important. Pack meetings open with prayer. This is new, and it came about at my prompting, and it has led to some interesting discussions. Discussions of God that come up with yout are always referred by me to the boy's family or religious leader. The adults who ask what I believe have been told. If they haven't asked, they still don't know. What they do know is that is that doing duty to God is important, but how one defines God is left to each family. My duty to God is just that: my duty. If I am lacking when it comes to being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, or reverent, then call me on it. Just don't expect that the way I do my duty to God, so long as it fits within the context of the Scout Law, to conform to the way you do your duty. Who is right? You? Me? In my opinion, within the BSA, it doesn't matter. In my opinion, it is in my heart that it matters, and then in how I carry out my duty that matters. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 ScouterPaul raises some excellent points and I agree with most of them. While I would never even consider denying membership from a boy who believed in God when his parents didnt, I also do not see believing in heaven as equally being reverent to God or as doing ones duty to God. So before the scout would ever be eligible to advance something more concrete in his convictions or belief system would have to appear. The scout has a right to know that. As leaders we have a responsibility to make that transformation possible by giving the scout opportunity and support in growing closer to God . I think it is very unrealistic to expect every scout age boy to understand God, or fully understand his person or cultural faith. I do think that a willingness to accept that there is a God and that we have a responsibility to show respect and perform works of good will in fulfillment of our responsibility too Him. As long as a parent understand that we are going to be exposing their son to these values as is not going to be countering it in their home instruction then the scout has every reason to be able to meet the membership and advancement requirements of the BSA. But I do not think the BSA intends to be training a scout in values that are contrary to his parents. A scout should not have to choose his parents values over those of Scoutings. If a parent does not see scouting as a support and continuance of their training then they should not look for membership in the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Bob White, I see your points. The only thing confusing to me is what do you mean by "something more concrete"? Could you be more specific, maybe give some examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason OK Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Come on guys....Jesus is LORD! Even NORMAN ROCKWELL knew this!(This message has been edited by Jason OK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Once, very early in my time as a scout leader, as I sat around a campfire with the troop where I was one of three assistant scoutmasters, we did a regular activity of choosing a point of the law and discussing it as a troop. The SM chose Reverent on this occasion. As we went around the circle each of us gave a example of what that word meant to us, and how we felt we fulfilled that responsibility. One scout about 13-years old at the time, said with great sincerity, "I'm not sure I believe in God". The assistant scoutmaster sitting next to hi, happened to be a Presbyterian minister. The man put his arm around the scout's shoulder and said, "the most important thing for you to accept is that God believes in you". That simple gesture and sharing of God's love opened up a whole new discussion among the boys. What it also brought out was the scout's battle with his belief in God and how God could take his father when he was younger. The young scout understood God as the creator, and God as the supreme force in the universe. What he couldn't understand was how and why God allowed certain things to happen in the world. He expressed that confusion in the only way he could think how to, as "I don't believe in God". But after some simple counseling around a pile of embers we learned he meant "I don't understand God". I don't know anyone who completely does understand God, and I would be prone not to trust anyone who says they did. But I saw nothing in what the scout said that made me think he did not accept God. (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Bob White, that's a great anecdote. I'll have to remember it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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