True Religion

[Achilleez]

"If a boy believes in a false god, then we can safely conclude these things:

 

1) This boy believes in a power and authority greater then humanity.

 

2) While his faith is not placed in the true God, he understands that our existence goes beyond the physical world.

 

3) His morals beliefs do not rely on the stability of an individual or an institution.

 

4) As long as hes examining the world spiritual and physical, there is hope that he will open his heart to the true God."

 

Ok, lets take a look at number 4) here. I would wager quite a bit (from my own experiences) that a boy who has committed himself fully to a religion or belief in a specific God is much LESS likely to open his heart to a new one than a boy who is yet undecided on faith as a whole. Secondly, I would also safely conclude that all four of your conclusions could also be applied to many many athiests.

[Rooster7]

Achilleez,

 

I would wager quite a bit (from my own experiences) that a boy who has committed himself fully to a religion or belief in a specific God is much LESS likely to open his heart to a new one than a boy who is yet undecided on faith as a whole.

 

Possibly, but lets clarify something. An atheist has a belief about God. He is not someone who is undecided on faith as a whole. An atheist denies the existence of God. And in my experience, they usually do so just as confidently as I proclaim His existence.

 

Secondly, I would also safely conclude that all four of your conclusions could also be applied to many many athiests.

 

Okay. Youve got my attention and interest. Lets just go with the most intriguing supposition His morals beliefs do not rely on the stability of an individual or an institution.

 

If his morals are not rooted in a creed and/or an example given by God what stable (unchanging/unyielding) force sustains the moral values of an atheist?

 

[NJCubScouter]

Rooster says:

 

If his morals are not rooted in a creed and/or an example given by God what stable (unchanging/unyielding) force sustains the moral values of an atheist?

 

Of course, the first part of that sentence could describe the beliefs of some non-atheists as well, so I am not sure what the point is. You can believe that mankind came up with the Ten Commandments plus the other 600+ commandments in Exodus and Leviticus (that only some Orthodox Jews follow all of) and all of the other various moral principles that have come, gone, changed or stayed throughout history, without assistance or "example" from God, and yet believe in some higher power or supreme being, and therefore not be an atheist.

 

[Achilleez]

"Possibly, but lets clarify something. An atheist has a belief about God. He is not someone who is undecided on faith as a whole. An atheist denies the existence of God. And in my experience, they usually do so just as confidently as I proclaim His existence."

 

Not all athiests would fit into that boat. True, some are as concrete in their beleif that no supernatural power exists similarily to the way you are sure one does. However, me and my ilk form what I have grown to know as the much larger pool of what are often labelled athiests. I guess you could call me "Man who doesn't have faith in specific religious dogmas and is unsure about 'Gods' existence at all and thus refuses to commit himself to any one religion due to skepticism", but athiest just makes it shorter. To call me an agnostic is untrue as well because I have found most agnostics to be the ones who put no thought into it at all and just get blown around by the winds of society and social pressure. Perhaps you can come up with a more fitting term.

 

"If his morals are not rooted in a creed and/or an example given by God what stable (unchanging/unyielding) force sustains the moral values of an atheist?"

 

First off I could throw that exact same argument back at you due to incredibly differing values of Christianity over the centuries, but I think NJ says it pretty well. In answer to your question, I would say that common sense, human decency and the knowledge of right and wrong that every human possesses would be the force of which you speak. Experience has taught me that it is the creeds of specific doctrines themselves and the conclusions people often draw from them that throw people off their own moral guages. (ie, God wants Americans to die, God wants us to hate blacks / homosexuals / athiests)

 

My conclusion has been that if there is a God and he does want us doing specific things, than he hasn't done a very good job of making those things clear to humanity, due to the observable evidence of varying interpretations on his word.

 

 

 

[boleta]

Achilleez

You have opened yourself to the argument of all TRUE believers, whether Christian, Muslim or whatever that God HAS done a good job of telling us what to do... You just have to read the right book and follow the right rules.

Gnos- to know. A- not. An agnostic may believe in God but not be willing to commit to an acceptance of the religions that have "the answers," since the agnostic cannot know.

But to get back to Scouting, the Scout has to do his duty to God (as he has been taught or believes) and be reverent which includes respecting the beliefs of others. The Hindu Scout can do this just as well as the Christian.

[Rooster7]

You can believe that mankind came up with the Ten Commandments plus the other 600+ commandments in Exodus and Leviticus (that only some Orthodox Jews follow all of) and all of the other various moral principles that have come, gone, changed or stayed throughout history, without assistance or "example" from God, and yet believe in some higher power or supreme being, and therefore not be an atheist.

 

Part of my worldview includes this premise - God is an unchanging/unyielding (and righteous) force. That is a separate debate. However, NJ wants to make this premise the focus of discussion to discredit my question. His lamentation infers that I am unfairly holding atheists to a higher standard. This is true if you agree with his assertion that God has not left us with an unchanging/unyielding creed and/or example. So for the sake of argument, lets say this is true (although this is clearly not the case). How does this assumption negate the validity of my question, which was

 

If his morals are not rooted in a creed and/or an example given by God what stable (unchanging/unyielding) force sustains the moral values of an atheist?

 

In other words, higher standard or not, an atheists values are subject to the whims of men and/or their institutions. Without God as an anchor, there is no reason for mankind to cling to quaint traditions (such as marriage), or prudish prejudices (like the rejection of homosexuality), or superstitious taboos (like abortion or incest), or even silly paradigms (like the belief that harming others is somehow unacceptable). Without God, what moral imperative demands that I even care about a collective community? Why shouldnt I focus all of my attention on myself and myself alone? If there is no God demanding that my heart comfort to His and tend to the needs of others, why would I? I realize that our society is not falling apart at the seams because of atheists running amuck. However, they have no reason other than the fear of societys reprisal not to do as they please. And if a society starts to breakdown, logically they have two paths to choose from contribute to the decade (by behaving in a manner that suits their will and needs) or resist the urge and help rebuild in order to provide some measure of protection against others. Both motives are inspired out of self-interest, and self-interest alone. I cannot expect an atheist to logically behave in any other manner. They have no foundation for anything else.

 

NJ, your argument has power if you can convince others that God has not left any clear teachings, or that Christ was not His Son - and a living example for us to follow. As for me, I maintain that God has left His unchanging/unyielding Word first the Old Testament, and then His living Word Christ, as revealed to us in the New Testament. We have no excuse for not knowing His Will. Proverbs says The beginning of wisdom is the fear of Lord. I believe this to be true with all of my heart. But it is His love that sustains my desire to conform to His Word.

 

Can an atheist show love for another? I believe he can. But without God, I think that love has little hope of being sustained and/or without the overcast of ones self-interest.

 

Achilleez,

 

I would say that common sense, human decency and the knowledge of right and wrong that every human possesses would be the force of which you speak.

 

If God is not instilling this common sense, this human decency, this knowledge of right and wrong that every human possesses, then who is? Where did this force come from and how do you know we ALL possess it? You are making an argument for the existence of God, not a counter argument to His existence.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Achilleez]

I never attempted to make an argument against God's existence. The knowledge of right and wrong is something I think that EVERY human possesses. And that beleif is not upheld by religious or scientific criteria, I just believe it. There are however other variables than can change what people see as right.

 

Your argument also runs in circles around itself. You claim that athiests have nothing to guide them, no sense of morals or ethics and that they act entirely out of self-interest. Yet you also claim that human decency and common sense are traits instilled by God onto ALL humans.

 

"Without God, what moral imperative demands that I even care about a collective community? Why shouldnt I focus all of my attention on myself and myself alone? If there is no God demanding that my heart comfort to His and tend to the needs of others, why would I?"

 

Helping others is right. Selfishness is wrong. A world where people help eachother makes a better place for everyone. Do you need further proof?

 

"They have no foundation for anything else."

 

They have the belief in humanity and what is right and wrong and what will help everyone's life to be better.

 

"Can an atheist show love for another? I believe he can. But without God, I think that love has little hope of being sustained and/or without the overcast of ones self-interest."

 

My love for my wife, my son, my brothers and parents in unshakable. To say that it has little hope of being sustained is ignorant not to mention quite rude.

 

Rooster, you continually make large and innaccurate assumptions about what all athiests are and do based either on your experiences with a small number of them (not good) or simply what you have heard about them (even worse).

[boleta]

Each religion that claims to be the only way to God is mutually exclusive of every other religion. This shows an arrogance that says "only I can be right." There is only one Supreme Being and God is the same for all. Too bad the true believers don't recognize or accept this.

 

Maybe the atheist can do better than much of the hypocritical behavior of many true believers, but this is irrelevant. BSA requires duty to God and reverence which still excludes the atheist.

[Achilleez]

"Maybe the atheist can do better than much of the hypocritical behavior of many true believers, but this is irrelevant. BSA requires duty to God and reverence which still excludes the atheist."

 

That is the exact issue Hunt was questioning when the thread began.

[boleta]

It doesn't really matter. Baden-Powell set it up this way. National supports it this way. The thread on dissent discusses trying to change it, but that is unlikely for the forseeable future. The values of Scouting ARE noble. You can argue that Change in an organization like BSA SHOULD be slow and difficult.

 

The atheist or agnostic who recognizes the values of the organization and want their boys to benefit from it may be willing to compromise and allow them to participate over some of their objections to the religious aspects of scouting. Hypocrisy? Maybe their boys just want to go camping.

 

[Bob White]

"Maybe their boys just want to go camping.

 

Then by all means mom and dad should take them camping. but don't apply for membership in the BSA. This is not a camping club. It is a values based education system, and if these are not the values you want to learn then do not join. It would be beyond hypocritical, you are lying to yourself and the BSA, there is no benefit to either.

 

[boleta]

"but don't apply for membership in the BSA"

"there is no benefit to either."

Hardly a realistic attitude. I don't recall your criteria in the joining requirements. BSA is lucky they don't think like you do or the ranks of Scouting will be depleted. Oh, but they will certainly have a higher quality of Scout!

The kid may want to join because of his interest in the activities. He went to his first meeting and it seemed like a lot of fun. Most 11 year old boys are far from understanding or attaining the values and behavior that BSA espouses. The influence of and exposure to these values will greatly benefit these kids. Another thread discusses Bobby the ADDH problem scout. Yes, he is difficult to deal with. But he probably "needs" scouting more than the kid who is already Mr. Perfect Scout. I don't care why they are there. Let's still present the program to them and hope it rubs off on them. It might rub off on the parents too. You can stop them from getting Eagle when they don't measure up to your standard of duty to God.

[Bob White]

Scouting is not a camping club. The outdoors is one method used to teach the values and achieve the mission of scouting.

 

Why would a parent do that to their child? Why put them in an organization that defines itself largely by its insistence on duty to God and requires each member to be revenet to God and encourages religious service and participation if that is not the value shard by the family?

 

Why join an organization based on personal integrity by living a lie. What kind of parent would actually do that to their child?

 

 

[boleta]

"Why would a parent do that to their child?"

Do what? Allow their child to join an organization that the child wants to join? Gee, I don't know. Maybe because it is for the child and not the adult. My dad could have cared less that I was a Boy Scout. But I sure enjoyed it. It helped to define me and I am a better man because of it.

 

"an organization that defines itself largely by its insistence on duty to God"

Really? Most 11 year olds think it is defined largely by outdoor skills and having fun. I think the organization is defined by the Scout Law of which reverence is a relatively small part (and not even part of the original Law). I think it is defined by the Scout Oath which vows helping other people at all times and keeping yourself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight. Duty to God and Country is important. But it does not appear to be emphasized by most Scouts that I encounter.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Elitist or not here is the criteria for the true religion:

 

1 Kings 18

Elijah a Jewish Prophet, " 15. As the Lord of hosts lives, before whom I stand, I will surely confront him today."

He asked that the prophets of Baal to meet him on Mt. Carmel.

Elijah, "21. How long will you stand between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him."

 

Each side received an offering to be put upon their own stack of dry wood. The prophets of Baal were to go first to have their god light their fire to cook their offering. They called upon their god all day long to light their fire and nothing happened. When nothing happened, Elijah mocked them and said that, '27. their god must be talking, or he is out running around, on a journey, or he is asleep but at the end of the day neither voice, nor answer came.

 

THEN

Elijah took stones, 12 in number for the tribes of Israel and built an alter and put his wood on top of it. He had a trench dug around it. He then had the people pour 12 barrels of water on top of the wood, so the water was trapped around the base.

 

Elijah, " 37. Hear me, O, Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that you have turned their heart back again."

 

Of course God sent fire and consumed the offering. The people believed in God and the false prophets were slain.

 

One thing that must be said about "faith" and that is that it must be built upon more than words or ideas or rocks. It must have the physical backing of God. If you do not have evidence, then your god must be asleep at the wheel.

 

This example can be taken to its logical conclusion but the BSA does not want a Mt. Carmel meeting of all of the false prophets to determine who is right. The BSA does not want to determine a Scout's depth of faith. It does not want to determine the degree of maturity. It leaves that up to the individual Scout and their G/god.

 

Now where does that leave the atheist? It leaves them outside the BSA. The reason being is that they have left the God question and have developed their own system of beliefs. They should have little reason to desire to be within the framework of an organization that postulates a belief in God. It should be their affirmation to act in accordance with what they think is right and a belief in God should be an outright contradiction to how they wish to spend their time upon this earth. It simply doesn't make sense to do otherwise.

 

As, for who is right about their god/God, the challenge is open for a meeting up on the mountain anytime anybody has faith enough to ask for their fire to be lit. Until then, it may be assumed that a belief in God is enough.

 

FB