True Religion

[OldFart]

Quotes From A Passed President. Do You Know Who He Was?

"The Founding Fathers believed that faith in God was the key to our being a good people and America's becoming a great nation. George Washington kissed the Bible at his inauguration. And to those who would have government separate from religion, he had these words: 'Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.' And Ben Franklin, at the time when they were struggling with what was to be the American Constitution, finally one day said to those who were working with him that, "Without God's help, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel."

"If Benjamin Franklin rose to invoke the Almighty as the Constitution itself was being drafted, if the Congress of the United States opens each day with prayer, then isn't it time we let God back into the classroom?"

"The Constitution was never meant to prevent people from praying; its declared purpose was to protect their freedom to pray."

"We Americans are blessed in so many ways. We're a nation under God, a living and loving God. But Thomas Jefferson warned us, "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just." We cannot expect Him to protect us in crisis if we turn away from Him in our everyday living. But you know, He told us what to do in II Chronicles. Let us reach out to Him. He said, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

"The image of George Washington kneeling in prayer in the snow is one of the most famous in American history. He personified a people who knew it was not enough to depend on their own courage and goodness; they must also seek help from God, their Father and Preserver."

"While never willing to bow to a tyrant, our forefathers were always willing to get to their knees before God. When catastrophe threatened, they turned to God for deliverance. When the harvest was bountiful, the first thought was thanksgiving to God. Prayer is today as powerful a force in our nation as it has ever been. We as a nation should never forget this source of strength."

[Jason OK]

BOLETA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU SAID!

 

"I was offended at a Public School Sports Banquet where the athletic director started the meeting with a prayer. A Christian prayer. Absolutely against all separation of church and state rules for a public school (as dictated by the Supreme Court). Did I make a fuss? No. Is separation of church and state important? Yes. Is it worth it to outrage the entire assembly when the people that conduct these prayers need them but I don't? NO. "

 

 

When our Founding Fathers passed the First Amendment, they never intended to construct a wall between government and religious belief. The Supreme Court opens its proceedings with a religious invocation. Congress opens sessions with a prayer. I believe the schoolchildren of the United States are entitled to the same privileges. I sent the Congress a constitutional amendment to restore prayer to public schools. I am calling on the Congress to act speedily and to let our children pray.

 

-Ronald Reagan

 

Next time you get offended.....go cry in the restroom!

Then read the "Whole" Constitution.

 

 

That's all Reagan Old Fart.(This message has been edited by Jason OK)

[firstpusk]

Reagan's shallow understanding of the First Amendment was well documented during his presidency. The decisions that invalidated so-called "prayer in schools" never made it illegal for children to pray. However, it did make it illegal for administrators, teachers or other school employees to initiate, lead or encourage prayer. Because students are a captive vulnerable audience and these school officials are government employees, it does not seem so hard to understand why the Establishment Clause would outlaw the practice.

 

Yet Mr. Reagan was particularly obtuse when it came to these cases. One can see he garnered a particularly vociferous if not deep-thinking constituency by taking this stand. I wonder how Jason OK would feel if his children had to sit through daily Koran lessons or bow down to Mecca five times a day. The athletic director needed correction. If I had been present, I would have made sure that he and his supervisors understood that this is unacceptable. Would I interupt the dinner to do it? No. Had a student or group of students decided to pray, I would have no problem with it.

 

Personally, I am happier if I and my church are the ones responsible for my child's religious upbringing not the public schools. Those teachers most inclined to use tax dollars in order to force their religious views on my children are the same ones I feel most misunderstand the teachings of Christ.

 

[Jason OK]

firstpusk,

 

You obviously never liked Reagan. So....oh well.

 

Concerning to prayer in school. Reagan never said children must pray nor that they must pray to a Christian God.

 

So I am not sure what your point is. As Always.

[Rooster7]

lead or encourage prayer

 

FirstPusk,

 

Aaah, I love how liberals mix issues to create straw man arguments. I know you know this already but for those who have fallen prey to your deception - let me take the straw out of that man you just knocked down and stuff him with something a little stronger.

 

The law (which was struck down by an activist court) and Reagans stance on the 1st amendment, both sought to have students exposed to voluntary prayer. They did not advocate teachers leading prayer. You sloppily say, lead or encourage as if these words are interchangeable in meaning. Encouraging children to freely pray and/or mediate is not the endorsement of a religion or the establishment of a state church. Only in the twisted minds of liberal lawyers who are attempting to save the world by purging these United States of any hint of God, does this law represent a Constitutional violation.

 

You are simply misrepresenting the facts, and thus creating a bogus and weak argument a straw man argument, which makes it appear as if youre standing on the right side of reason. Sadly, those with weak arguments LIBERALLY employ this kind of deception. And BTW, Reagan was not obtuse He was a great man of intellect, which was only exceeded by his character. Painting him otherwise, is simply inaccurate and spiteful. But thats just another tactic of those who embrace the leftist agenda.

[Jason OK]

Standing Ovation!

[firstpusk]

Liking or disliking had nothing to do with my statements about Mr. Reagan. The intent of his remarks was to endorse public piety for political gain. I am certain that he favored school children prayer to Zorathustra. The fact that my point was beyond you is not surprising in the least. Read the First Amendment carefully.

 

"Amendment I

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

 

Note that it mentions the establishment of religion first. No surprise there. The Founders would be quite familiar with government-based religious persecution.

 

Next read the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

 

"Amendment XIV

 

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

 

The protections of the US Constitution and particular to our discussion those of the First Amendment are extended to preclude the states from establishing religion. Therefore, the example of the athletic director is one of a government official paid by tax dollars. He is establishing a religion using his government office.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Here are two of the best known school church & state decisions from the 1960s; both laws deserved to be struck down.

 

Engel v. Vitale (1962)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=volpage&court=us&vol=370&page=424

 

...

The respondent Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9, New Hyde Park, New York, acting in its official capacity under state law, directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day:

 

"Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country."

 

This daily procedure was adopted on the recommendation of the State Board of Regents, a governmental agency created by the State Constitution to which the New York Legislature has granted broad supervisory, executive, and [370 U.S. 421, 423] legislative powers over the State's public school system. 1 These state officials composed the prayer which they recommended and published as a part of their "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training in the Schools," saying: "We believe that this Statement will be subscribed to by all men and women of good will, and we call upon all of them to aid in giving life to our program."

...

 

 

Abington v. Schempp (1963)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=374&invol=203

 

...

The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania by law, 24 Pa. Stat. 15-1516, as amended, Pub. Law 1928 (Supp. 1960) Dec. 17, 1959, requires that "At least ten verses from the Holy Bible shall be read, without comment, at the opening of each public school on each school day. Any child shall be excused from such Bible reading, or attending such Bible reading, upon the written request of his parent or guardian."

...

 

 

Those in favor of repealing Engel are in favor of public school bureaucrats writing prayers for other people's children; those in favor of repealing Abington are in favor of public school bureaucrats deciding what religious texts are read out to other people's children each schoolday.

 

I don't think public school bureaucrats should be making such decisions.(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[ScouterPaul]

Ronald Reagan's proposed amendment 3/8/83

 

``Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to prohibit individual or group prayer in public schools or other public institutions. No person shall be required by the United States or by any State to participate in prayer.''

 

Article I from the Articles of Amendment United State Constitution

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

 

To my non-legal mind they pretty much say the same. Show me where there is a Court Decision that prohibits a student/teacher/parent ect. from praying in school.

 

"Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observances on the part of students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause..."

 

"It is neither sacrilegious nor anti-religious to say that each separate government in this country should stay out of the business of writing or sanctioning official prayers and leave that purely religious function to the people themselves and to those the people choose to look to for religious guidance."

 

Justice Black Engel vs. Vitale 1962

 

 

[firstpusk]

Reagan's "voluntary" prayer amendment was in name only. It would have allowed school authorities to institue and lead so-called "voluntary" prayers. It is worth noting that Mr. Reagan had to adopt this particular text and title for the amendment to mollify critics.

 

Neither Reagan's amendment nor the school board actions in the the prayer and Bible reading cases were voluntary. Actually reading the decisions or Reagan's proposed amendment allow me to understand the intent. There is nothing voluntary about the religious exercise they require.

 

"MR. JUSTICE CLARK delivered the opinion of the Court.

 

Once again we are called upon to consider the scope of the provision of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ." These companion cases present the issues in the context of state action requiring that schools begin each day with readings from the Bible. While raising the basic questions under slightly different factual situations, the cases permit of joint treatment. In light of the history of the First Amendment and of our cases interpreting and applying its requirements, we hold that the practices at issue and the laws requiring them are unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause, as applied to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment."

 

From the decision of the US Supreme Court in ABINGTON SCHOOL DIST. v. SCHEMPP, 374 U.S. 203 (1963)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=374&invol=203

 

"MR. JUSTICE BLACK delivered the opinion of the Court.

 

The respondent Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9, New Hyde Park, New York, acting in its official capacity under state law, directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day:

 

 

"Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country."

 

This daily procedure was adopted on the recommendation of the State Board of Regents, a governmental agency created by the State Constitution to which the New York Legislature has granted broad supervisory, executive, and [370 U.S. 421, 423] legislative powers over the State's public school system. 1 These state officials composed the prayer which they recommended and published as a part of their "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training in the Schools," saying: "We believe that this Statement will be subscribed to by all men and women of good will, and we call upon all of them to aid in giving life to our program."

Shortly after the practice of reciting the Regents' prayer was adopted by the School District, the parents of ten pupils brought this action in a New York State Court insisting that use of this official prayer in the public schools was contrary to the beliefs, religions, or religious practices of both themselves and their children. Among other things, these parents challenged the constitutionality of both the state law authorizing the School District to direct the use of prayer in public schools and the School District's regulation ordering the recitation of this particular prayer on the ground that these actions of official governmental agencies violate that part of the First Amendment of the Federal Constitution which commands that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" - a command which was "made applicable to the State of New York by the Fourteenth Amendment of the said Constitution." The New York Court of Appeals, over the dissents of Judges Dye and Fuld, sustained an order of the lower state courts which had upheld the power of New York to use the Regents' prayer as a part of the daily procedures of its public schools so long as the schools did not compel any pupil to join in the prayer over his or his parents' objection. 2 [370 U.S. 421, 424] We granted certiorari to review this important decision involving rights protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. 3"

 

From the decision of the US Supreme Court in ENGEL v. VITALE, 370 U.S. 421 (1962)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=370&invol=421

[evmori]

OK Merlyn. Since you seem to think ALL the decisions regarding the separation of church & state are correct, how do you explain the following:

DID YOU KNOW?

As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view . It is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall, right above where the Supreme Court judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments!

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law ...an oligarchy ... the rule of few over many.

 The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said: "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed Mori writes:

Since you seem to think ALL the decisions regarding the separation of church & state are correct...

 

Hey Ed, I've told you before that you simply can't learn anything, so it's kind of pointless to argue with you. For one thing, I've never said I agree with all church & state decisions, so your question is false to begin with. But you knew that.

 

I have said I agree with Abington v. Schempp and Engel v. Vitale; if you disagree, and think that public schools ought to have school bureaucrats write prayers and decide what religious texts should be promoted to everyone's children in public schools, go ahead and say why.

 

As for your copy & pasted screed, see http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/religious-depictions.htm(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[evmori]

Interesting Merlyn. Only one thing was fiction! Most unproven. But that doesn't mean it ain't true~

 

And you say I can't learn anything! Me! Think not! I do know I can't learn anything from you since you have nothing but trash to teach and I have no desire to learn the art of garbage collection!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[The Mighty Chief]

Reverence simply means a respect for other religions and beliefs. A scout shouldn't in any way disrespect anyone because of their religious convictions. Therefore, scouting should be open to people of all religions.

 

As for one's duty to God and country, this phrase is one of which has been around for a long time, and with the coming of agnostic and atheist and deist religions of our time, this may raise some controversy. The way I see it is that as long as one follows a set of ideals and beliefs similar to that of the scouting movement, and doing so RESPECTS other religions, he/she should be considered a scout. Duty to God should be interpreted loosely to fit all people's beliefs, so long as they are not sadistic or hateful in any way.

[Jason OK]

Worm Food I mean Merlyn_LeRoy is an Atheist. It is impossible for an Atheist to be Reverent.

 

Atheist

 

\A"the*ist\, n. [Gr. ? without god; 'a priv. + ? god: cf. F. ath['e]iste.] 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.

 

Ya know there are a lot of feminist out there that say they're atheist because "God" is a man. Or God Forbid they had a horrible experience with a man. I hope it's just the mustache waxing feminist side. If it was the Latter. Well I might be compassionate about it.