Guest OldGreyEagle Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Cowboy Curtis was a way young Laurence Fishbourne and Captain Carl was played by the late Phil Hartman and a Black Sheep reference, wow this is getting good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Rooster7 writes: So, the existence of false beliefs scientifically proves that God does not exist. That doesn't resemble anything I've said; I asked you which superstitious beliefs should I believe in? You can't seem to follow simple English, as you twist it around to mean something I haven't said. So answer - which superstitious beliefs? Gods? Demons? Djinn? Leprechauns? Ghosts? And, more importantly, if I should believe some and not others, which beliefs and why just those? And should I listen to religious leaders who tell me to pray instead of taking my medication? To kill infidels? To worship them as the new messiah? If I should believe some things that religious leaders say and not others, which ones and why? You seem to be promoting mindless gullibility; if you can't tell me why I should believe your religious views and not the snake-handler down the street, what use is your advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Boleta, you don't seem to understand where I'm coming from; I'm working on removing all government charters from BSA units, since the government can't practice religious discrimination (public schools can't charter cub scout packs, military units can't charter boy scout troops, etc). Don't worry, I'm firmly convinced that the BSA promotes bigotry against atheists and is not worth joining - I'm trying to get the BSA to stop acting dishonestly by issuing charters to government agencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsteele Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Leprechauns. Definately believe in them. You can't go wrong with a good leprechaun. Of course, when it comes to medications, I suggest you follow your doctor's advice. That's what I do. Unc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Merlyn, And you may get your way. Public Schools may stop allowing Scouts to meet there even as they allow the Bible Study Club. So what? So the BSA will get charters from Ruritan Clubs, Churches, Citizen Groups and other non-governmental groups. BSA requires an Oath to do your duty to God. BSA says any personal interpretation of this is OK. It does not matter if you don't respect the beliefs of religious people (as you have belittled them here), BSA requires us to respect them. And I believe, as NJCubScouter has suggested, it requires us to respect atheists as well- to be Friendly regardless of the beliefs and customs of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstpusk Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Globey's spinnin', Mr. Window's grinnin', 'cause Pterri's flyin' by (hello!) The Flowers are singin', the Picture Phone is ringin', and the Dinosaur family goes, "Hi!" Mr. Kite's soarin', Conky's still a snorin', there's the flashing Magic Screen, The Cowntess is so classy, Randy's kinda sassy - A nuttier establishment you've never seen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Boleta, how is it "respecting" the beliefs of atheists when the BSA charters public schools to run Scout units that exclude atheists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I can respect your beliefs and not accept them. I think we have reviewed this concept several times already in this thread. Why would you want to join the Spanish Club if you are taking French? On second thought, you might join the Bible Study Club just so you can argue with everbody. Why do you care if kids that want to be members of BSA meet at a school? Maybe you will get the school to revoke the charter. Who does that help? It certainly hurts the kids that want to be Scouts. Why would an atheist want to be a member of an organization that requires an OATH to do duty to God? Why would you want to encourage an 8 year old to live a lie? (worst of all- they might stop being atheists and start believing in God... horrors!) I am new to the forum but I keep hearing the same argument from you. Now, let's get back to Scouting issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 boleta writes: Why do you care if kids that want to be members of BSA meet at a school? Boleta, I'm talking about the school CHARTERING scout units. The school, in the words of the BSA website, owns and operates the scout unit. Now, think about that. If a public school can own and operate a youth group that excludes atheists, they can own and operate a youth group that excludes Jews. Or Catholics. Or Muslims. Do you think it would be legal for a public school to "own and operate" a youth group that excludes anyone who's Jewish? Or anyone who isn't a Christian? Or anyone who believes in more than one god? Or anyone who doesn't believe in at least one god? You're asking why I would want to revoke a school's BSA charter - I'm only hurting the kids. What about the atheist kids? If a public school was running a group that didn't allow Jewish kids to join, don't you think some people would complain? Would you berate those people who are trying to stop it as just hurting the (non-Jewish) kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Merlyn, You have 600 posts on this forum, but you are a one trick pony. I am willing to admit that your points are valid in principle. As the school systems come to their senses and the Scouts find other places to be chartered, society will have changed for the "better". Or just changed. Scouters will be outraged as these changes occur. But the strengths of BSA still will far outweigh any weaknesses you may perceive. Or maybe you would like to see this quaint organization pass into oblivion simply because you don't respect its right to set its own rules. Millions of young men have benefitted from the Boy Scouts of America. Why don't you start the Ethical Students of America (atheists included) and see if you can do as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 boleta writes: As the school systems come to their senses and the Scouts find other places to be chartered, society will have changed for the "better". Why isn't the BSA honest enough to NOT charter BSA units to government agencies now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Merlyn, I didnt think that I had twisted your words. If you werent attempting to imply that all religions were false by referencing those bizarre creatures and teachings then what were you trying to say? You seem to be promoting mindless gullibility; if you can't tell me why I should believe your religious views and not the snake-handler down the street, what use is your advice? Dont believe my religious views or the snake-handler down the street. Why not do your own search and use your God given mind and heart to find the truth? Havent you ever explored the possibility of Gods existence outside of a science textbook? To some, your cavalier dismissal of Gods existence suggests a man who is confident in his stance. Im not convinced. To me, that in your face attitude, indicates a man who is trying to convince himself. Youre doing yourself a disservice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Why are you picking on BSA. I assume that historically, public schools chartered Scout units. BSA took its charters where it could and still does. As each Public School system confronts this issue, they will make their choices, right or wrong. I was offended at a Public School Sports Banquet where the athletic director started the meeting with a prayer. A Christian prayer. Absolutely against all separation of church and state rules for a public school (as dictated by the Supreme Court). Did I make a fuss? No. Is separation of church and state important? Yes. Is it worth it to outrage the entire assembly when the people that conduct these prayers need them but I don't? NO. The Board Room of our City Hospital had an American Flag and a Christian Flag in it. The President of the Medical Staff was Jewish and the Chairman of the Department of Surgery was Muslim. No one but I noticed the Christian Flag in the corner of the room (donated by a local YMCA and present for many years). It was removed when I suggested it was inappropriate at a City Hospital to have a sectarian flag. I can still do my duty to God, belong to BSA, respect the beliefs of the True Believers and you, and still ask for separation of church and state. It is in my and your best interest that the government stay out of ALL of our religious lives. I look forward to seeing how the ESA (Ethical Students of America unite!) turns out. Good luck with your new organization. I will support your right to Charter at a public school as I am sure you will be non-descriminatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Rooster7 writes: I didnt think that I had twisted your words. If you werent attempting to imply that all religions were false by referencing those bizarre creatures and teachings then what were you trying to say? WHICH bizarre creatures and teachings? That a god exists? That demons exist? That prayer heals illness? That there's a messiah and a holy ghost? Do you think these are bizarre creatures and teachings? Funny, I would have thought most of that was compatible with your religion. Or is it just the beliefs of OTHER religions that you find bizarre? Djinn? They're in Islam. Faeries? In Pagan religions. And so on. So which "bizarre beliefs" should I subscribe to? Gods and demons? Djinn and faeries? I don't see any reasonable basis to believe in any of these. ------ boleta writes: Why are you picking on BSA. I assume that historically, public schools chartered Scout units. And the BSA has gone to court repeatedly for their right to kick out atheists; since public schools can't practice such religious discrimination, all public school charters need to be removed. BSA took its charters where it could and still does. As each Public School system confronts this issue, they will make their choices, right or wrong. No, ALL public schools will be required to drop BSA charters, because they can't practice religious discrimination. It's a constitutional issue. Schools can't "choose" to violate the constitution. I was offended at a Public School Sports Banquet where the athletic director started the meeting with a prayer. A Christian prayer. Absolutely against all separation of church and state rules for a public school (as dictated by the Supreme Court). Did I make a fuss? No. Is separation of church and state important? Yes. Is it worth it to outrage the entire assembly when the people that conduct these prayers need them but I don't? NO. Ah, so first amendment rights shouldn't be defended if they lead to some hurt feelings? Sorry, that's a terrible standard to use. The Board Room of our City Hospital had an American Flag and a Christian Flag in it. The President of the Medical Staff was Jewish and the Chairman of the Department of Surgery was Muslim. No one but I noticed the Christian Flag in the corner of the room (donated by a local YMCA and present for many years). It was removed when I suggested it was inappropriate at a City Hospital to have a sectarian flag. Why did you speak up in this case but not the other? Is it worth upsetting the YMCA? I can still do my duty to God, belong to BSA, respect the beliefs of the True Believers and you, and still ask for separation of church and state. It is in my and your best interest that the government stay out of ALL of our religious lives. Which is why public schools run by the government stay OUT of owning and operating "no atheists" youth groups, right? I look forward to seeing how the ESA (Ethical Students of America unite!) turns out. Lying does not become you. And, by the way, do you think Learning for Life can teach atheist students ethics (as L4L claims to do) while being a wholly-owned subsidiary of an organization that excludes atheists and which dishonestly charters "no atheist" youth groups to public schools? Should L4L teach that as "ethical"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason OK Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Merlyn_LeRoy, Can I call you Worm Food? Got any kids? AS long as they are innocent of your stupidity...well thank GOD! They will go to heaven. If not. You are just walking worm food. If you do have kids I am sure they appreciate your concern. Stay out of Scouting! I do not believe in others religions but I believe they meet the BSA criteria. You do not. I strongly believe a Scout MUST be Reverent! Regardless who their God is. Even Einstein believed in a higher power. Atheist \A"the*ist\, n. [Gr. ? without god; 'a priv. + ? god: cf. F. ath['e]iste.] 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. 2. A godless person. [Obs.] Syn: Infidel; unbeliever. Just in case you are confused. agnostic n. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. a. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. 2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something. [a-1 + Gnostic.] agnos tically adv. Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning without, not, as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gn sis, knowledge, which was used by early Christian writers to mean higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as Gnostics a group of his fellow intellectuals ists, as he called them who had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a man without a rag of a label to cover himself with, Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870. (This message has been edited by Jason OK) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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