Rooster7 Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Merlyn, If you believe logic is a sign of intolerance, then I can understand why youre still an atheist. If youre an atheist for the usual scientific reasons, let me ask you something. If something cannot be proven to be true or false (although concerning Gods existence, I dont agree this to be the case I think theres plenty of proof that He does exist), why do you presume to know the answer? Do you really believe that the multitudes are superstitious? Do you discard every possible belief about God as nonsense? Is love simply a biological/chemical reaction? Are good and evil merely concepts contrived by men? Do you believe in anything that is supernatural? And if so, why cant you extend that belief to the existence of God? Is His existence just too incomprehensible for you to consider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Bob White writes: It does not require that I be tolerant of people who have no belief in God And you certainly live down to that expectation. And you still wonder why I object to government charters to a group that promotes such bigotry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 You need a better understanding of the word bigot. I am not bigotted toward athiests, I discriminate against atheism, and there is a difference. I find no value in not believing in God, and so I choose the values of God over the values of atheism. That is discriminatory not bigotted. To be bigotted I would have to be unchangeable in my position. I have never said I could not be swayed. But to this point in my life no convicible argument has ever been presented that swayed me. Yours included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Hey Rooster7, how much nonsense should I believe? Gods, angels, djinns, faeries? Leprechauns, trolls, ghosts, demons? Should I just believe everything that anyone believes? Should I believe all of these things, or just some of them? Do you believe in all of them? Should I believe the religious leaders of the Johane Church of God in Botswana, and refuse to immunize my children against polio, and refuse all forms of medicine? http://www.mmegi.bw/2004/June/Tuesday29/881507161829.html Should I believe that Rev. Moon is the new messiah? http://www.thehill.com/news/062204/moon.aspx How many of my children should die before I should give up praying to supernatural beings to cure them and instead take my surviving children to, oh, DOCTORS? http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical2.htm Sorry, your plea that I ought to be more gullible and believe supernatural nonsense is too dangerous from my point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 If the definition of bigotry is one cannot be swayed from a strongly held belief, then call me a bigot. I love God and I know He exists. My faith is not without logical, but it doesnt rely on it either. That probably sounds contradictory to people like Merlyn. Regardless, the spiritual world is real enough. While there is plenty of physical evidence that supports my claim, the lack of that evidence (or the keen arguments of an educated skeptic) wouldnt make it less real to me. God is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Bob, you ARE bigoted towards atheists, you just can't see it yourself. And you're off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Scouting asks that I be tolerant of people whose belief in God is expressed through rituals and beliefs different than my own. It does not require that I be tolerant of people who have no belief in God. Actually what the Scout Handbook says, about a Scout is this: "He respects the beliefs of others." ("Reverent), and "He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own." (Friendly.) Neither place says that the person has to have a belief in God before we are required to respect them and/or their beliefs. I suppose one could argue that taken in context, the sentence from "Reverent" really means the RELIGIOUS beliefs of others. After all, it follows the sentence "He is faithful in his religious duties." But under "Friendly," that is not the case. Respecting "people of all races and nations" "even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own" seems to encompass beliefs, or non-beliefs, about God as well. I think this passage requires respect for the atheist. Now, I guess one might ask, is this open-ended language ("others" and "all") really as open-ended as it seems? What if the belief of another person is that it is ok to commit illegal acts? What if a religion still practices ritual human sacrifice? Are we required to "respect" that as well? I'm guessing the answer is "no," though the text leaves it an open question. But an atheist does not break the law, or harm anyone else, by being an atheist. I don't see how the atheist falls outside the "respect" required of us, under "Friendly." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Merlyn, So, the existence of false beliefs scientifically proves that God does not exist. Does the existence of placeboes cause you to conclude that all medicines are bogus? Do revisionists have you concluding that all of history is a sham? Does the willingness of others to spread lies nullify reality? If you believe this, then I suspect that you are the one who is superstitious, not me. Are you afraid to confront the truth? Barriers are not broken unless one is brave enough to explore. Seek God in earnest, and do not presume that you know Him or His ways. If you do this with an open mind, and a willing heart, then I think you will find Him. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13 & 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 The difference NJ is that you and some others see atheism as a religious belief. I and others see it for its definition...an absence of belief. (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Thank you NJCS, you have made the critical point that brings us back to Hunt's original question. IF you believe there is ONLY one True Religion, THEN there doesn't seem to be a difference between the fringe religion and no religion. BUT, BSA makes no distinction! BSA requires a belief in God. Sorry Merlyn. I respect you and your belief, but you still can't raise your hand and do duty to God. Scouting is not for you. That is why atheism is inconsistent with being a Scout or Scouter. Insight can be achieved by reading Baden-Powell's original handbook and the reasons he stresses for duty to God. Remember, A Scout is Reverent was added in 1911 by BSA and is not part of the Scout Law in the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 The doors to the cabinet inside the playhouse open and Jumbi says, "Science, did someone say 'science'?" Regressing to elementary school-level education: science can't prove anything about religion one way or the other. Science simply can't address the supernatural. Science neither confirms nor disproves matters of faith. Period. Bob White, you have taken me to task in the past for attempting to speak for you. I would like you to let NJ (for that matter, the rest of us) to speak for himself (ourselves). You obviously have poor comprehension of his (and our) ideas and therefore you probably will be in error when you pretend to inform us of his (our) thoughts and intent. Thanks. boleta, thanks for returning us to the topic. Good luck at staying there. Sorry for the interruption. The doors to the cabinet close, "Long live Jumbi." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 "Reverent was added in 1911 by BSA and is not part of the Scout Law in the rest of the world. Hmmmm, care to make a little wager on that Boleta? Not only are there other laws with reverent, every Scout Oath includes Duty to God (tho a couple have it as an optional stanza). (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldGreyEagle Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Wow, a Paul Reubens reference, what next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Wager with you on a Scouting issue, Bob? NO WAY. But the basis for Scouting is Baden-Powell's Handbook for Boys which added the 10th point- Clean, in 1911 (?)- NOT reverence. A Scout is Reverent may be in some programs, But as far as I know, it is still not a part of the Handbook for Boys. Yes, Duty to God is integral to the Oath. Which is why adding Reverent was redundant. It does, however, add the requirement of respect for the beliefs of others!!! That sure clarified things. Many of the posters here don't seem to understand this part of it. And finally, your point earlier in this thread is that BSA does not and will not EVER choose a TRUE religion as the basis for this Oath. Thus, allowing for any personal expression for duty to God, being inclusive with the exception of atheism- sorry again, Merlyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 radio static, "Is that you, Boynton (OGE)?" I would note, however, that Paul was the Pee Wee guy. I never knew who played Jumbi but there were several other prominent television actors and actresses who appeared there from time to time. Mekalekahi, mekahinyho. Let the cartoon begin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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