True Religion

[Rooster7]

First, the point of a religious service (a.k.a. a worship service) is to recognize and worship God. I disagree that it should necessarily be a talk on a point of the oath or law. It might include that as an element, but I dont see it as being the focus of the service.

 

Because many faiths may be represented at a Camporee, I understand the concern and the desire by some to have a generic service. However, if an invitation is extended to all Scouts at the Camporee to help create a variety of religious services, then I see no problem with offering these tailored, faith specific services as an alternative to a single generic service. In fact, I think its more in tuned with helping these boys meet their duty to God. One, it will force some of these boys to become more familiar with their own self-proclaimed faith. Two, while a generic service may or may not help the boys acquire a sense of unity in Scouting, it wont help them to focus on the God of their faith - the God that they claim to know and love. Even if there are some Scouts and Scouters that can claim otherwise, surely there are many Scouts that fall into the group that I just described. Thus, its not always the best solution to offer a generic service, when some of those in attendance will not feel as if they are truly worshiping God.

 

For example, if a Christian has to attend a religious service whereas the name Christ Jesus cannot be mentioned, it greatly diminishes his ability to recognize and worship God. As Boleta might say, this is his truth. The Bible teaches us (Christians) to gather in his name and to hold no others before him. Furthermore, we are instructed to never deny His name or we ourselves will be denied as His children.

 

I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises. Psalm 22:22

 

Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 5:19 & 20

 

Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. Matthew 10:32 & 33

 

For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them. Matthew 18:20

 

Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praisethe fruit of lips that confess his name. Hebrews 13:15

 

My point, asking Christians to conduct a worship service and to censor themselves from saying the name of Christ is tantamount to asking them to commit blasphemy. Whether or not all Christians recognize this fact is another debate, but the Bible clearly teaches that we must recognize Him - and Him alone and by His name. In short, a generic service is not conducive for this purpose, and thus those Christians that believe as I do are being denied the ability to worship God as they are taught.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Bob White]

Scout's Own, and other similar observances, where the the relationship of the scouting ideals and ones duty to God are brought to the foreront. Are not meant to be religious services used to fullfill any specifc religions worship obligations. The purpose is to celebrate the similsrities we share as scouts that we aknowledge and accept the existence of God. And to recognize that we have values common throughout multiple religious affiliations that are realized through the scouting movement and brotherhood.

 

As a Catholic I have no problem attending a celebration that points out as a scouter I do good things in God's eyes. Jesus doen't have to be mentioned for me to enjoy that gathering. I like God. I like Jesus too. I can go to a gathering where wither or neither is mentioned and I will still like Him. I don't need to hear His name in any specific way to appreciate the role he plays in my life and in scouting.

 

Nor do I see this as celebrating the Mass. If I attend a Scouts Own, I still have to attend Mass to complete my weekly obligation.

 

So lets not confuse what A camporee Fellowship Service is, or what it's goal is. We gather to celebrate that besides some difeerence, both large and small, we have a core commonality. We share the same scouting values which include a belief in the powere of God.

[SR540Beaver]

Rooster,

 

You keep changing the conditions of the situation described. You are correct, the Scouts can take charge of creating their own service and there can be multiple services of different faiths at the same event. However, for this Camporee there was only one service scheduled and it was heavily denominationally slanted. Whoever was in charge of setting it up messed up. They should have informed the minister of what was needed and if his convictions tell him not to, he could have declined. I understand what you are saying since I have been in a conservative, evangelical church all my life. I've seen preachers take advantage of having a forum at both weddings and funerals to preach a 30 to 45 minute hell fire and brimstone message and the only temptation they resisted was having an invitation at the end. It was inappropriate to say the least. I knew the families involved and they didn't request a sermon of salvation at the weddings or funerals. In a setting like a Camporee where a single non-denominational service is provided, the purpose of the service is not to convert the lost. It is to set aside a time for each person to worship together in their own way and to reflect on and be inspired to do their duty to God. Scoutings purpose is not to do religious intruction (except in a "closed" unit), but to encouage duty to God.

[Rooster7]

Bob,

 

Jesus doesn't have to be mentioned for me to enjoy that gathering.

 

This statement, as well as some others that you made (not all), represent your personal feelings about such a service. This statement does not reflect the feelings of all Scouts and Scouters. In other words, some folks may not feel the same way. As to the BSAs intentions concerning such a service, and what constitutes a BSA sanctioned service, please point me to the proper documentation (if such a document exists). I am curious.

 

SR540Beaver,

 

Please go to page 13 and read my response to your specific situation. I think youll find that we more or less agreed. My post on this page does was a hypothetical and not a retort to your experience.

 

[Bob White]

"This statement, as well as some others that you made (not all), represent your personal feelings about such a service."

 

Excuse me Rooster, but did I represent it as anything other than my personal feelings?

 

"As to the BSAs intentions concerning such a service, and what constitutes a BSA sanctioned service, please point me to the proper documentation (if such a document exists). I am curious."

 

Gladly, but just for fun..you go first. You have now written several posts on this topic. All of which was your personal opinion. None of which has any relationship to the scouting program. You show me one scrap of BSA material that supports any of the personal diatribe you have offered us on this topic. Then I will post the BSA resources supporting the information I shared.

 

By the way, I never called it a BSA sanctioned service. I did not not even call it a service. Those are your words. I never even suggested that the BSA was in the business of "sanctioning" any religious "services". In fact I said that they were not services at all.

 

I look forward to learning your BSA resources.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[boleta]

I believe I was the first to call the gathering at the Camporee a religious service. Interestingly, BobWhite called it a fellowship service. But it seems that the intent is to show duty to God and reverence. Is this not a religious service? I strongly agree with the sentiments here that it should be non-denominational or non-sectarian.

The appendix of the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals course included "Suggested Interfaith Worship Service" and Suggestions for Religious Observance" which includes many excellent recommendations to avoid the kind of problems that our District encountered.

[Fuzzy Bear]

SMHB, 1990, Page 139

Religious Obligations

"Scouts should be able, while on a campout, to meet the obligations of their faith. Approved religious services may sometimes be held within the camp, and transportation should be arranged for Scouts wishing to attend services in communities nearby. This should be discussed and planned by the patrol leaders' council well ahead of time."

 

Please take the time to allow all Scouts to make a choice before exhorting your personal truth all over them without their permission. This is not a nation of 90% Christians. Even if it were 100%, there would remain much heated debate as to what is truth. Yes Virginia, people do not always agree, even in Oklahoma!

 

FB

 

[Laurie]

Thank you Roster. In answer to: "In regard to having a passion for faith and the BSA, we diverge slightly. I have PASSION for my faith and God. I like the BSA. Theyre not on the same level to me, not even close. Perhaps I misinterpreted your words here.

 

What I said is: "When it comes to the BSA, I can indeed be passionate about my faith and convictions, just as others can be passionate about their faith and convictions which might be very different, but we all should keep the main focus on the program -- and the program is the one thing all of us in Scouting have in common."

 

Just in case that's not clear, I do not equate my faith and convictions with my role as a Scouter. I was making two points: one about faith, the other about Scouting. They go together, but the level of commitment, time, energy, passion that goes into the BSA should never exceed that which goes into faith--IMO anyway.

[Bob White]

Notice that the handbook doesn't suggest that the religious onligation can be met through a BSA "sanctioned" service, it says to have an "approved" service in the camp or to make an effort to take the scouts to town to the service of their faith. In may religions an approved service requires the presence of clergy and specific rites or rituals that must be performed. This cannot be accomplished in a non-denominational observance. It does not suggest that a Scouts Own observance is a religious service or that it is meant to fufill religious obligations.

 

Now please let's give Rooster a chance to present BSA resources that support his position before we present more that do not.

 

Rooster?

[dsteele]

I hope this thread is fading out.

 

I just read all 14 pages for the first time. It made interesting reading. Some posts were ugly.

 

Over the 30 years I have been involved in Scouting, I've had the honor of working with, playing with and even leading, Scouts and Scouters of the following faiths/belifs. I respect each and every one of their belief systems and have studied them.

 

Native Americans -- I admire the spirituality of their beliefs and their respect for other religions.

 

Muslims -- Growing up in my troop, we had a couple. They were devoted to God and simply worshiped Him in a different way.

 

Hindu -- had a Scout in my troop who was a Hindu. His belief system was very different than my own, but he followed it and so did his family.

 

Mormon -- The only truly American religion as far as I'm concerned. I've read the Book of Mormon and the Word of Wisdom. I respect the religion, although it isn't in line completely with what I believe.

 

Jew -- I'm fascinated by Judaism and am currently reading a book about it. Had a Jewish boy in the troop at the same time and in the same patrol as the hindu boy. We ate a lot of chicken on campouts.

 

Catholic -- My great grandfather, who's father was "asked to leave" Ireland for his actions as a Protestant would roll over in his grave reading this, but I have a deep respect for the Roman Catholic Church.

 

Protestant -- I've worked with the whole gamut. I respect those who believe what they profess they believe.

 

Regardless of what I believe or what you believe, wouldn't you agree that the world would run much more smoothly and with far less violence if we all just agreed to respect the beliefs of others?

 

I apologize for the long post, but what the heck? I read 14 pages of this stuff before touching my keyboard.

 

Now I have a question I'd like an answer to from the Christian fundamentalists posting here. Please believe me when I say it is not asked with sarcasm. I truly want to know:

 

If gospel means Truth (as I have learned it does.) Why does it take four attempts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) each with a different spin and differing stories, to explain that Truth?

 

Unc.

[LovetoCamp]

Brother Uncle,

 

If you want it to fade out, don't throw gas on it!!! LOL

[NJCubScouter]

Uncleguinea says:

 

Jew -- I'm fascinated by Judaism and am currently reading a book about it. Had a Jewish boy in the troop at the same time and in the same patrol as the hindu boy. We ate a lot of chicken on campouts.

 

We're just fascinating people. Seriously though, did this Jewish boy strictly follow the Kosher food laws? Or follow them at all? I ask because it is very difficult to follow the Kosher laws strictly, or even closely, if you are an individual boy in a patrol or troop. It is much easier if it is a group effort -- which is why one of the camps at the Ten Mile River Camps of the Greater New York Council has a strictly Kosher dining hall. I don't think you could get a non-Kosher meal there if you wanted to. And that means not just avoiding ham and shellfish, but making sure that all foods are Rabinically approved, as well as maintaining separate cookware and utensils for meat and dairy. Of course, all of this is one reason why most American Jews (including me) follow the Kosher laws either not at all or in an extremely lax manner. When I was growing up, one of the troops I was in was about 40 percent Jewish, but I do not remember anyone really insisting on following the Kosher laws. It would have been interesting if they did; I'm guessing that the freeze-dried foods sold for backpacking did not have the Rabbinical seal of approval, but I bet there are stores in New York (and elsewhere) where you can buy those that do (though not inexpensively.)

 

Regardless of what I believe or what you believe, wouldn't you agree that the world would run much more smoothly and with far less violence if we all just agreed to respect the beliefs of others?

 

I sure would agree (though I suspect people would have guessed that.)

 

 

[Jason OK]

Uncleguinea,

 

Why don't you ask the Catholics? They counseled and chose what books were to be in the Bible. (Although I believe God was right there with them guiding them) Maybe you should ask yourself this question. "Why do we have more than one news channel reporting the news?" "Why can't we just have CNN?"

 

Christians "Gentiles"

Include (Catholics, Protestant, even Mormons) Accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior.

 

Jews

The Bible says God will forgive the Jewish people of their sins & make them know Him by Jesus opening their eyes. www.bridgesforpeace.com "Christians helping Jews"

 

I will have to finish later.....have to get ready for church. (Saturday Night service...better than getting up early on Sundays) Rooster would do a great job helping explain this also.

 

PS

A friend asked me to go to his church a couple of years ago. I went and let him know I was offended. After realizing he was my friend and I basically insulted my friend. I went back to church with him out of respect. Thinking I could disprove what was being taught; I started reading the Bible. The more I read and tried to disprove, the more I could not. My personal story is scarcely different from thousands of Christians today. Oops. Go to go or I am going to be late

 

 

 

 

[dsteele]

NJ: Thanks for the laugh. The Jewish kid in my troop probably would have eaten anything in front of him, but made a big deal out of being Jewish. I think he wanted to be different. We were a small troop of 7 boys at the time and I wanted to honor the Hindu and the Jew as well as the Presbyterians who chartered us.

 

Unfortuately, with 7 boys, patrol method is hard to do, so we planned menus as a group. I was the one who said no pork and no beef. That left poultry and lamb.

 

Good thing I love lamb and had the recipes and spices to make it happen.

 

Unc.

[boleta]

Hey Unc. You said:

I just read all 14 pages for the first time. It made interesting reading. Some posts were ugly.

 

 

I have been a very active participant in this thread. I must say it got much better since I squelched one of the posters. The discussion has actually been provocative and interesting. I hope I wasn't one of the ugly posters in my responses (does that mean I am ugly or the posts were ugly?). If so, I apologize to all.