True Religion

[Rooster7]

"This statement, as well as some others that you made (not all), represent your personal feelings about such a service."

 

Excuse me Rooster, but did I represent it as anything other than my personal feelings?

 

It was just an observation. You made it clear that a generic service which would forbid the name Jesus Christ being evoked, would not hinder your ability to worship. I wanted to reiterate that not everyone feels the same way. That there may be some Scouts and Scouters present that would prefer a faith specific service (Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc.). I guess a better way to say this is - if we are planning religious services with everyone in mind, we should not assume that a generic service is always the best answer. I am suggesting that a better alternative could be multiple faith specific services (assuming there is enough Scout interest to support that effort).

 

"As to the BSAs intentions concerning such a service, and what constitutes a BSA sanctioned service, please point me to the proper documentation (if such a document exists). I am curious."

 

Gladly, but just for fun..you go first. You have now written several posts on this topic. All of which was your personal opinion. None of which has any relationship to the scouting program. You show me one scrap of BSA material that supports any of the personal diatribe you have offered us on this topic. Then I will post the BSA resources supporting the information I shared.

 

I think you're reading too much into my posts. I am curious. There was no inference in this statement (as you seem to believe). I never claimed to speak from any perspective other than my own as a Scouter with a number of years of experience. Although, I think your assertion that my opinion does not have "any relationship to the Scouting program", is a little excessive. I am discussing the topic of religious services and how they could be used to serve all Scouts. Nothing more to it than that.

 

By the way, I never called it a BSA sanctioned service. I did not even call it a service. Those are your words. I never even suggested that the BSA was in the business of "sanctioning" any religious "services". In fact I said that they were not services at all.

 

I did indeed choose the word "sanctioned". I don't see it differing much from the word "approved". If you prefer "approved" over "sanctioned" - great. It's seems to me, regardless as to which word may be in the BSA material, they have very similar meaning. But if they don't, then I stand corrected.

 

In my experience, these services have been referred to by many Scouters at BSA camps and elsewhere, as "religious services". Many or most of my comments stemmed from the idea of what a religious service means to myself and others that I know. Since the BSA encourages all Scouts and Scouters to embrace their faith, I assumed that they would have no problem with Scouts and Scouters that want religious services that do the same.

 

Loosen up Bob. I am not insinuating anything about your knowledge or expertise. When I asked - "please point me to the proper documentation," I meant every word, including the "please".

 

I realize that my opinions may not meet your approval, but unless we're splitting hairs on word choice or some other minor issue...I don't think what I have suggested concerning this topic will cause the BSA to gather a posse and purge me from their ranks. I thought we were sharing ideas.

 

Laurie,

 

As I thought, I just read too much into your post. We are in complete agreement then.

[Jason OK]

OK...Just got back from a great Church Service...feeling good!

 

Uncleguinea,

 

Here is my attempt to answer the "Heart" of your question.

 

You said

"If gospel means Truth (as I have learned it does.) Why does it take four attempts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) each with a different spin and differing stories, to explain that Truth?"

 

What you must remember is all four book do not conflict with each other. They are merely an eye witnessed report from four different sources. For example: A group of people might look at one painting and agree that is a painting of a baby crying but they may be drawn to different aspects of that painting. Thus a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

When you read the bible in it's entirety...from Genesis to Revelations....it is amazing! there is so much prophecy mentioned in the Old Testament about Jesus (that comes true). Not to mention it is the best historical document for locating ancient locations.

 

One interesting fact about Israel: Only the Jewish people have been able to take the arid land and make it yield an abundance of crops.

 

Deuteronomy 26:15

Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

 

Boleta's Post:

 

I have been a very active participant in this thread. I must say it got much better since I squelched one of the posters. The discussion has actually been provocative and interesting. I hope I wasn't one of the ugly posters in my responses (does that mean I am ugly or the posts were ugly?). If so, I apologize to all.

 

Knowing Boleta was referring to me...I would like to make a remark concerning his post.

 

I know I have not been the poster child of my faith. I regret that fact. But please respect the fact I am passionate and I will not attempt to appease anyone by brown nosing. Thank you for reading this post and God Bless.

 

[Bob White]

You made it clear that a generic service which would forbid the name Jesus Christ being evoked, would not hinder your ability to worship.

 

That is a total misrepresentation of the truth. (Did I say that with enough tact?)

 

Please copy and paste any line where I said anything of the sort.

 

Let's cut to the chase. You wanted me to give a BSA reference to support what I said. So I asked you to do the same. If I have to show the BSA resource for my view, then you should have to do the same. After all this is a Scouting forum. What we discuss, even on this board, should relate to Scouting.

 

So put up Rooster. What BSA resource supports you.

As a Scouter with years of experience why would you need me to point you to anything? I would hope that there is some BSA experience in there with your personal experience. Where does the BSA support your view.

 

"When I asked - "please point me to the proper documentation," I meant every word, including the "please". "

 

Amazing Rooster, you even misquote yourself.

The context and text of what you said stated, refering to my view, that....

 

"This statement does not reflect the feelings of all Scouts and Scouters."

 

followed by...

" As to the BSAs intentions concerning such a service, and what constitutes a BSA sanctioned service, please point me to the proper documentation (if such a document exists).

 

First I never said it reflected the view of all scouts and scouters I said it reflected the view of the BSA.

 

That was not a request for help. That is a challenge to prove what I said. I accept that challenge. And I extend the same to you. You have shared several posts on your myopic often selfish ownership of what and who God is. Show us one piece of BSA information that you have come upon in your year years of Scouting experience.

 

Otherwise show some courtesy to the fact that not everyone shares the same belief you do, and in the BSA they do not have to, are not required to, should not be expected to. As long as they share the same core belief in God all should be respected for their differences.

 

I am sad for you that you feel you need to hear someone say the Lord's name for you to consider it worship.

 

Many people are able to worship God in the way they respect their marriage vows, in the way they love their children, in the way they go about the day with others and never even have to hear God's name mentioned to know that they are worshipping God by their actions.

 

We gather as Scouts and celebrate the fact that we share those values that let us show reverence (worship) God through our daily Good Deeds and Scouting ideals. If that doesn't work for you fine. You can choose not to join the celebration. but The Scout Law does not direct you to disrespect and criticize those who share that joy.

 

I do not ask that you meet my approval. But as a Scouter it would be nice if you represented the values of scouting

 

So do we get your BSA evidence, or your courtesy?

 

 

 

 

[Bob White]

You made it clear that a generic service which would forbid the name Jesus Christ being evoked, would not hinder your ability to worship.

 

That is a total misrepresentation of the truth. (Did I say that with enough tact?)

 

Please copy and paste any line where I said anything of the sort.

 

Let's cut to the chase. You wanted me to give a BSA reference to support what I said. So I asked you to do the same. If I have to show the BSA resource for my view, then you should have to do the same. After all this is a Scouting forum. What we discuss, even on this board, should relate to Scouting.

 

So put up Rooster. What BSA resource supports you.

As a Scouter with years of experience why would you need me to point you to anything? I would hope that there is some BSA experience in there with your personal experience. Where does the BSA support your view.

 

"When I asked - "please point me to the proper documentation," I meant every word, including the "please". "

 

Amazing Rooster, you even misquote yourself.

The context and text of what you said stated, refering to my view, that....

 

"This statement does not reflect the feelings of all Scouts and Scouters."

 

followed by...

" As to the BSAs intentions concerning such a service, and what constitutes a BSA sanctioned service, please point me to the proper documentation (if such a document exists).

 

Your second total nisrepresentation. I want you to show me where I said it reflected the view of all scouts and scouters. I 'm confident it reflects the view of the BSA but I never said "all Souts and Scouters".

 

That was not a request for help. That is a challenge to prove what I said. I accept that challenge. And I extend the same to you. You have shared several posts on your myopic often selfish ownership of what and who God is. Show us one piece of BSA information that you have come upon in your year years of Scouting experience.

 

Otherwise show some courtesy to the fact that not everyone shares the same belief you do, and in the BSA they do not have to, are not required to, should not be expected to. As long as they share the same core belief in God all should be respected for their differences.

 

I am sad for you that you feel you need to hear someone say the Lord's name for you to consider it worship.

 

Many people are able to worship God in the way they respect their marriage vows, in the way they love their children, in the way they go about the day with others and never even have to hear God's name mentioned to know that they are worshipping God by their actions.

 

We gather as Scouts and celebrate the fact that we share those values that let us show reverence (worship) God through our daily Good Deeds and Scouting ideals. If that doesn't work for you fine. You can choose not to join the celebration. but The Scout Law does not direct you to disrespect and criticize those who share that joy.

 

I do not ask that you meet my approval. But as a Scouter it would be nice if you represented the values of scouting

 

So do we get your BSA evidence, or your courtesy?

 

 

 

 

[boleta]

As a Scouter, I feel we owe all the boys that are present an acceptable program. When I, as an adult, go to a Christian Worship Service and hear the word Jesus, I can think God in all forms. I listen to the message (which is pretty much the same in all faiths). I would hope that the Christians that feel strongly about it would hear the word Jesus when the word God is spoken at a non-sectarian service. But to insist that only Jesus be represented as God, when others do not feel this way is a problem if some in the audience find this objectionable. Especially if no alternative is given. Unfortunately, the True Believers just can't seem to accept this.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I am so glad that each of us has finally come to our ever loving senses after 15 long and tedious pages. (*some thought we had lost our minds) We have partially put aside our many, many differences and name calling, religion bashing and poster squelching and will now be a little better people and/or Scouters than we have been in the past.

 

(I love happy endings)

 

I want to thank each of you personally for coming to this service (*begin to shake hands all around) and hope that when we finally meet that it will be a peaceful event and not what an outsider would think would happen if they were to read what we have wrought. (*all join in close circle of friendship, OA style)

 

Down tempo to chorus in background to On my Honor..

 

Now may the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouters.....

 

[Jason OK]

Bob White,

 

You said: "As long as they share the same core belief in God all should be respected for their differences."

 

I can not respect anothers religion. I can respect that God gave us "Free Will" and the ability to use it.

 

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Christians have God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. "Trinity" Every time we sin and we ask for forgiveness; Jesus looks at his father and asks him to forgive us.

 

A Christian has the whole package. We recognize all of God's glory. That is why we can not merely just recognize God. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

Bob White you said,

 

"I am sad for you that you feel you need to hear someone say the Lord's name for you to consider it worship." I believe God would be offended.

 

Lets say you and your son did something great.during a daring rescueyou and your son went to help a drowning lady. During this rescue your son died trying to save this lady. Would you be offended if the press only covered your heroic attempt and mentioned nothing of your son?

 

I thank Jesus for going to the cross...when Jesus's "humanity" wanted something else, Jesus did as his father asked.(This message has been edited by Jason OK)

[Rooster7]

Bob,

 

Despite what you may believe, I am not trying to get into some sort of ******** contest. Perhaps, I misunderstood you when you said, "Jesus doesn't have to be mentioned for me to enjoy that gathering." In the context of the thread's discussion up to that point (generic service verses faith specific), I understood that to mean that you could worship well enough at a generic service - i.e., a service where the name of Christ Jesus would not be allowed to be said aloud. If that's not what you meant, then again - I stand corrected. Although, I am a little confused as to what you did mean.

 

This thread has two basic themes - What is true religion (which has been broad in scope) and how do we serve the Scouts so that they can appreciate their religion or fulfill their duty to God. At least that's how I've been viewing it. Some of my comments are personal in nature and address my views on religion. Ive included those views because I wanted to demonstrate that some Scouts and Scouters have ideas about religious services that do not necessarily jive with the concept of a generic service. Some other comments I made were in respect to how I see us serving the Scouts. I think the nature of those comments were relatively self-evident.

 

With that saidI am not going to respond to the other things you have said or asked in your last post. You seem to think every thought or opinion that I have attempted to express in this thread is a jibe directed at you personally. Thats simply not the case. Nor have I ever claimed that I can quote or even reference BSA policies to support all of my thoughts. They are just that...thoughts on the subject. Although, as Ive already indicated, I doubt that I am so far off base that those in authority will be hunting me down.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Bob White]

Jason,

You are welcome to your personal beliefs and Scouting encourages you to grow in your faith. But you chose to be a scout leader two weeks ago. I hope you took the time to learn what that meant. You by now have learned the Oath and Law.

In that law you promise to respect the beliefs of others.

 

In Scouting the flip side of growing in your faith is respected others whose faith may differ. If you cannot live up to that then you should rethink your ability to set the example for the scouts.

 

In scouting we sometimes gather to celebrate our shared belief in God. We do not mention Jesus as the Son of god because not religions see Him in that way. That seem s top be a great concern for some who seem unable to celebrate God without the mention of Jesus.

 

So I offer you this thought to reflect on. In the years that Jesus walked among us as a man he spoke often of the glory of God, and God's love for us. Did Jesus use his owm name in his lessons? Did he mention himself in order to be able to celebrate his Father? Did he only celebrate his Fathers love with those who believed in Jesus?

 

If celebrating God without mentioning Jesus was good enough for Jesus, then I don't think He minds if we do it in Scouting as we celebrate his Father.

 

We are not talking of official religious services, we are talking of gathering in fellowship to worship the elements in which we are common, not looking for ways to point out our differences.

 

 

[Jason OK]

Bob White,

 

Do not forget I was a Boy Scout for 5 years. I know the Scout Law and Oath...I even know the motto and slogan....

 

I RESPECT their right to make their choice concerning religion ...I, by no means must respect their religion. The "Law" says I must respect their beliefs but if I do so, I would be breaking the "Oath" (To GOD and my Country)....You can say what you will but there needs to be some cleaning up in the Law and Oath if you want to be tyrannically correct.

 

Here in the South I do not think I have been to one of your "by the book" scout worship events....and as far as I know, no ones has been evers offendedings. Little southern charm therefores yas.

 

My Duty FIRST is my FAITH...then family. Country...then Scouting.

 

Your approach to scouting "seems" (I use seems since I do not know you) too tyrannical. I'm glad your memory serves you well by noting it was only two weeks ago I decided to be an adult leader.

 

I have plenty of time to memorize the rules.

 

You said:

"So I offer you this thought to reflect on. In the years that Jesus walked among us as a man he spoke often of the glory of God, and God's love for us. Did Jesus use his own name in his lessons? Did he mention himself in order to be able to celebrate his Father? Did he only celebrate his Fathers love with those who believed in Jesus? "

 

YES he did. Quite a few times in fact. If you are intent on everyone having their doctrine in the rules of scouting; I will make you a deal. I will go buy every book you ask me to, if you open your Bible to learn what you said was out of ignorance In return, if I learn anything I said was out of Ignorance; I will publicly apologize to you in any part of this forum you choose. You knowing the truth is that important to me and to God, believe it or not.

 

Did you have an answer for this question?

 

Lets say you and your son did something great.during a daring rescueyou and your son went to help a drowning lady. During this rescue your son died trying to save this lady. Would you be offended if the press only covered your heroic attempt and mentioned nothing of your son?

(This message has been edited by Jason OK)

[Bob White]

Jason and Rooster,

 

You both have strong beliefs, that's wonderful. But you are not the only two, so do millions of people in many different ways. In Scouting religion is like politics. Scouting doesn't care what party you are just don't force it on others. The BSA promotes active citizenship but not support of a specific party.

 

In reverence the BSA supports a belief in God but as leaders you are not to support or criticize a personal belief in God that doesn't jive with your personal belief in God. Those are the values you agreed to support.

 

Part of the problem is the title of this thread. It promotes the very divisiveness that the values of scouting discourages.

 

What is the true religion? To each person it should be the one they believe in. If they didn't think it was then why would they follow it?

 

Scouting expects you to follow the most important key to leadership. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you. If you want others to respect your religious belief then you must begin by respecting theirs and the Scout Law calls upon you to do just that.

 

Jason,

I have great concern for you. From the onset your posts have been vulgar. You have used humor that has been in very poor taste. You have made very base comments. You try to force your newly formed enthusiasm in faith over values of scouting and more importantly over the beliefs of others. It is fine that you put your faith first in your life as do many of us. But if you cannot find a balance way to be able to hold your faith and deliver the program, within the methods of scouting, then you should not have made the choice to be a scout leader.

 

Your last personal message to me was the clincher. I'm sure had you used that language on this board you would have been barred from the site. I stress to you again, take some time to learn the program first. There is still a lot you do not know or understand about this program. Your seven years as a youth member may help you with the outdoor skill. But you are an adult leader now and the skills you need now are completely different. Yes you have lots of time to memorize the rules, but first you need to take a few hours and learn them, then take a few years and practice them. Until then consider the value of asking more questions than giving your answers.

[Jason OK]

Bob White,

 

I said earlier.

 

"I know I have not been the poster child of my faith. I regret that fact. But please respect the fact I am passionate and I will not attempt to appease anyone by brown nosing. Thank you for reading this post and God Bless. "

 

I have answered your questions. You still will not answer mine. In return you felt it necessary to hammer me down until you personally felt I was manageable in your mind. And finally I was trying to be scout like in my approach. I even expressed my regret,my shame of myself.

 

Do the rules say a Scout should let the other start over(turn a new leaf in attitude)?

 

And will you answer my question and accept my offer?

(This message has been edited by Jason OK)

[evmori]

It's Sunday and the 4th of July! And the men's choir in church will be singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic! What a great day! Praise the Lord!

 

Jason,

1st off, please don't include Mormon's as Christians. They are a cult.

 

Rooster7,

Like I mentioned to NJ in another thread, when will you learn Bob White is always correct! He is never wrong and if your opinion is different from his you are wrong!

 

I have a great respect for your religious knowledge, Rooster7. I would love to sit down with you & discuss many things! Maybe that will happen some day, Lord willing.

 

Bob, (who won't see this since he has me blocked)

You posted

"Jesus doesn't have to be mentioned for me to enjoy that gathering."

I will pray for you, son. Jesus is the reason we are alive! When His name isn't mentioned during a religious service, I feel the service is incomplete!

 

To no one in particular,

I have lead many camp religious services. They have all been non-denominational therefore I have always omitted the name Jesus from them. I don't like doing this but to be truly non-denominational this must be done since you don't know who your audience is. I have and still do, from time to time, depending on the audience, offer to pray with anyone who wants to pray after the service. I have had some takers over the years.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I lead a Scout service a few years ago and allowed myself the right to speak from my personal beliefs. My friend of many years happened to believe differently. He told me so after the service. My first thought was that he could lead the service the next time and share his beliefs. My next thought was that I must be true to my beliefs no matter what, even if it means losing my friend. After a little more thought, I decided I would like to retain my friendship and that I would simply abstain from such a forum in the future. I told my friend that I did not know how to speak about my beliefs without keeping all of the tenets.

 

In the meantime one of our LDS leaders lead a couple of the services. I saw what he was doing. He was not telling us what he personally believed but he was sharing moral lessons with us. It was simple. It paralleled his beliefs and I am sure those of the rest of us. I now know that if my religion expected me to be in a service with only my views, I could have gotten in a car and driven to one.

 

A note about the LDS leader, he had very strict views and I know to give a moral lesson did not fulfill the tenets of his faith. I also know that he was expected to be in his own service and that he used to leave instead of stay. I respected him for his gift and should have told him so. Instead, all I could think of was that I could not spout my own beliefs.

 

By the way, I retained my friend, my God, and my beliefs. My pride took a beating but then I deserved it.

 

FB

 

[Bob White]

Jason

 

To answer all your questions:

 

1.If my son were to die, the last thing that I would care about is how the media reports it. I carry his love as I carry Jesus'.. in my heart not in the words of others. I cannot believe that anyone would be so needy at their time of loss as to care about the media coverage, or to be unable to celebrate God without hearing His son's name spoken aloud even tho it is in his heart.

 

2.I already read the Bible do there is no need for me to begin, I will simply continue.

 

3.Certainly there is hope that your attitude will change. A good time to start would be NOW. You are welcome and encouraged by Scouting to hold onto your faith, but you are also instructed to be courteous to the millions of others who also believe in God but who have customs, rites and tenets that differ from your own.

 

If you are unable to control your own needs at the expense of others, then scouting was not the movement for you to apply to for membership.

 

Ed,

In the words of Marcus Tullius Cicero

"I prefer tongue-tied knowledge to ignorant loquacity."

(feel free to run that through spellcheck if you wish)