Achilleez Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Eamonn, I think that my position as an atheist is just about exactly as Hunt described it. Scouting has been a positive influence for my son and I hope he stays with it. While I have no objection to him being a Scout or a Christian, I just desparately hope it will never turn him into a bigot like FOG appeared to be with his last post. However, I won't lie and say that I like the BSA's membership guidelines either. I think they take away alot of opportunities from kids who could benefit greatly from Scouting. I am not suggesting that we throw away all the values that make Scouting great, but it bothers me that there can't be a better way.(This message has been edited by Achilleez) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Achileez, it is the civility in how you explain what you believe or do not believe and how you don't agree with the BSA that makes me personally more inclined to listen to you. NJCubScouter has shown that same civility--usually -- in saying what he supports in the BSA and what he doesn't agree with. I've little to no time for those will just criticize others, regardless of their religious background (or lack thereof), their race, or anything else. Zahnada nailed it another post: this particular board--Issues and Politics--is becoming pretty harsh. Please do not judge all Christians by some who do speak as bigots or are just plain mean--and there are plenty who call themselves Christian who don't exactly act it. I'm not sure why this thread seems to indicate that the BSA has Christian beliefs; that's not the case at all. There are so many different religions represented, and I count it a privilege to meet many from different religious backgrounds. As for atheists, to my knowledge I've not yet met one other than on-line. As for the sadness I feel for those who don't have something to hang onto when times get rough (at least that is what atheism seems to be to me), I won't deny it. I won't agree with it either, but I'll not hate you or call your names. That is not what I've learned in my faith and that is not what I've learned as a Girl Scout growing up and a Scouter today. Eamonn--good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 "And it's obvious that FOG's insult about atheists drew no response," I don't recall insulting atheists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilleez Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 "They are much like the flat Earth folks, working very hard not to believe the evidence so they can cling to their erroneous beliefs." I don't know how things run where you are from, but to me the phrase "cling to their erroneous beliefs" when refering to spiritual beleifs (or 'value system' for those who won't recognize true atheism as a beleif structure) is astonishingly arrogant, offensive and downright ignorant. Especially coming from a Scout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deloe Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 I'd ask FOG whether he considers calling atheists liars to be an insult, but he'd probably just duck the question like usual. Laurie: The fact is, the BSA is dominated by Christians. While there are non-Christians, there a quite small percentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovetoCamp Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 The vote's in. You Godless activists can not be Scoutmasters. You can go now. Make like the wind. At one time I saw this forum had 3,800 registered users. If that is true, than you 3 or 4 heathens have poisoned or firmed up the opinions of nearly 4000. I never gave atheism a thought previous to this forum, having read the posting of these representatives, I'm totally behind BSA, more rock solid than ever before. Congratulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 You may have noticed that I haven't been arguing for atheists to be admitted to scouting, but to have school charters & government funding removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Atheism is a religion. Its a religion, which denies the existence of absolute moral truths and allows one to function as he pleases without guilt or concern for condemnation. After all, if there is no God, then whos to say what is right or wrong. If you are thinking this cant be so because Id trust my atheist buddy or relative to raise my kids if I were to perish in a car accident tomorrow - then youve missed the point. The fact is, if one embraces atheism as truth, then he/she has a belief system that not only denies the existence of God, but the source for any fixed definition of good and/or evil. Ironically, those who prefer to close their eyes to God often claim science to be their champion. In order to re-enforce their self-deception and to gain the hearts of confused minds, they proclaim evolution as evidence that Gods handiwork is an allusion. This is incredibly amusing, if not outright hypocritical, because evolution does not have a factual basis. In truth, many of the scientific communitys best and brightest concede that evolution does not even qualify as a theory. In the end, its merely a worldview a religion, if you will that permits its followers to embrace whatever feels good. Like many self-centered special interest groups, such as the homosexual activists, abortion rights advocates, the feminist movement, and others, when they are not greeted with open arms they claim bigotry. Again more irony and hypocrisy actually, this is simply a mean spirited response to slander and discredit those who have an opinion different then theirs. Not surprisingly, the Democratic Party has extended their umbrella to include these special interest groups. I say not surprisingly because most liberals embrace a philosophy that either denies the existence of God or diminishes his righteousness, and supports a worldview that mankind can ultimately create a harmonious world regardless of personal morality. Of course, they are wrong on at least three accounts: 1) God does exist and His righteous should not be denied. 2) Morality is not personal; its God defined. 3) Mankind is not capable of creating anything that is truly good without God. By definition, God is not just a superior being, but rather He is the Supreme Being. He is unlimited in His powers, knowledge, and wisdom. Why do human beings, one of His creations, think that they can comprehend his ways? Why do they run from any understand of God that contradicts their worldview and/or their preferred way of living? "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8&9 We can debate this forever, but Im convinced that most folks know the truth. They either dont want to face it; or worse, theyre intent on dragging others into a pit with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Atheism isn't a religion, just as theism isn't a religion; they can be tenets or creeds of religions but are not religions in and of themselves. Good work condemning the Democrats for not excluding atheists; what cads! We all know atheists are second-class citizens, just like the Declaration of Religious Principles says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Merlyn, As to what constitutes a religion, any basis for a worldview drives one's religion. My basis is Christ. Your's appears to be Darwin. But any monkey knows that...right? ;-)(This message has been edited by Rooster7) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 If you want to make up new meanings for words, go ahead; I'll stick with regular English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herms Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 I am very confused by terms some of you are using in your posts. Philosophically, an ATHEIST by definition acknowledges the existence of a supreme being, but denies it. An AGNOSTIC doubts the very existence of a supreme being. (Wow, to deep for a Friday!) Think about it for a second. For you self-proclaimed Atheists out there, are you Atheist or do you really mean Agnostic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScouterPaul Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 In my younger days I thought of myself as an atheist. However, I determined that I was and still am anti-organized religion. I do know several atheist and they don't give a darn what your religion is. You can do what you want just don't force your religion on them. Tolerance ummm. That being said, I have a question of Rooster. It would appear by your post than only those religions that believe in Christ are true "Religions" is this your belief? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Merlyn, From Merriam-Webster: Religion 1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith The last three definitions offered, apply to atheism as much as any other religious faith. If nothing else - even if we cannot agree on the definition of religion, atheism requires as much faith as any religious belief system. From American Heritage: Faith 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief. , trust. And if you only believe in the definitions offered by select dictionaries, I wouldnt read Merriam Webster. They dont portray atheists in a good lightunless you like being called wicked. From Merriam-Webster: Atheism 1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS So, stay with your dictionary as much as you want, it is what it is Youre not fooling anyone. You are determined to live life as if there is no God that is your worldview. Whether you want to admit to it or not, it greatly affects the decisions you make and the values you embrace. Religion and/or the belief in God have the same ultimate affect it is the foundation for a worldview, which ultimately drives the decisions and values that one embraces. Whether we agree to call atheism a religion or not is a moot point. The real issue is they both represent worldviews. Furthermore, since atheists cannot prove that God does not exist, both require acts of faith. In fact, I would argue that atheism requires more faith. ScouterPaul, In regard to ones personal right to believe as he chooses the answer is YES, I think all faiths are valid in that sense. In regard to the idea that God will accept everyone into His kingdom regardless of what one might believe, the answer is NO - I dont think all faiths are valid. If youre asking me Do I believe that the God of my faith is the true God? The answer is YES Why else would I embrace a faith? I hope youre not implying that I should accept the beliefs of all people as being valid. That simply makes no sense. Besides the fact that many, if not most religions, are contradictory of one another, my God does not allow me to recognize any other gods. To do so, is blasphemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Of course, using those metaphorical definitions of religion, "bowling" is also a religion. I'll stick with English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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