The Song of the Strange Ascetic

[Adrianvs]

Still at the computer terminals in your anonymous crusade against the BSA, eh Merlyn et al.? You freed yourselves from the shackles of superstition; is this the most interesting thing that you can find to do with your new liberty? What strange ascetics you are..

 

 

If I had been a Heathen,

I'd have praised the purple vine,

My slaves should dig the vineyards,

And I would drink the wine.

But Merlyn is a Heathen,

And his slaves grow lean and grey,

That he may drink some tepid milk

Exactly twice a day.

 

If I had been a Heathen,

I'd have crowned Neaera's curls,

And filled my life with love affairs,

My house with dancing girls;

But Merlyn is a Heathen,

And to lecture rooms is forced,

Where his aunts, who are not married,

Demand to be divorced.

 

If I had been a Heathen,

I'd have sent my armies forth,

And dragged behind my chariots

The Chieftains of the North.

But Merlyn is a Heathen,

And he drives the dreary quill,

To lend the poor that funny cash

That makes them poorer still.

 

If I had been a Heathen,

I'd have piled my pyre on high,

And in a great red whirlwind

Gone roaring to the sky;

But Merlyn is a Heathen,

And a richer man than I:

And they put him in an oven,

Just as if he were a pie.

 

Now who that runs can read it,

The riddle that I write,

Of why this poor old sinner,

Should sin without delight-

But I, I cannot read it

(Although I run and run),

Of them that do not have the faith,

And will not have the fun.

 

 

With apologies to Mr. Chesterton..

[Fat Old Guy]

Moi-lin isn't really anonymous. He's Brian Westley www.westley.org

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I'm not really surprised that you would disapprove of my trying to stop government-funded religious discrimination against atheists; I suppose if there were thousands of public schools owning & operating youth groups that excluded Jews, and HUD grants were awarded to solicit members for these groups (as long as they weren't Jews, of course), you'd criticize people who tried to stop that, too.

[Fat Old Guy]

I really wouldn't care if you started a no Jews club and applied for a federal grant.

[NJCubScouter]

FOG says:

 

I really wouldn't care if you started a no Jews club and applied for a federal grant.

 

FOG, assuming that you aren't Jewish, what if I started a no-Whatever-Religion-FOG-is Club, and applied for a federal grant, then would you care?

 

[Bob White]

Since when is it a problem for anyone to "apply" for a grant?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NJCubScouter]

Since when is a problem for anyone to "apply" for a grant?

 

You know, that's a good question. Merlyn was talking about a grant being "awarded." It was FOG who changed it to "applied for." I guess I just sort of assumed he meant really "awarded" since that was the topic, and I responded to that. If FOG really just meant "applied for," his post was irrelevant to the thread.

[NJCubScouter]

Agh.

 

I said:

 

...he meant really...

 

I meant:

 

...he really meant...

 

I can't edit my posts.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The real problem is when you apply for a government grant that requires you to sign a nondiscrimination agreement, and then you use that money in a way that violates that agreement; now you've committed fraud.

[Hunt]

For those shocked about this grant, let me remind everyone that this is one case, the grant was issued three years ago, for the princely sum of $15,000, and the lawsuit has apparently dropped into a black hole since the complaint was filed. What else do you have? Something with some real money involved?

 

If some county in another state gave $15,000 to a group I abhor, I'd go, "Tut, tut!" But I'd have the sense to realize that it is such a piddlingly small amount of money that the local people should deal with it, not me. For example, when the Judge put up the Ten Commandments monument, I felt that it was blatantly unconstitutional for him to do so. My response? "Tut, tut."

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

So a little unlawful discrimination is OK with you, eh? I happen to think principals are important.

[Fat Old Guy]

"FOG, assuming that you aren't Jewish, what if I started a no-Whatever-Religion-FOG-is Club, and applied for a federal grant, then would you care?"

 

Nope.

[NJCubScouter]

Well, FOG, fortunately, what you care and don't care about is not the legal standard by which these issues are decided.

[Adrianvs]

"I happen to think principals are important."

 

They are. But principles are more important.

 

In your opinion, can organizations which discriminate on the basis of non-theisitc ideology or creed receive federal funding? Every science-based organization is practicing de facto discrimination against idealists (religious or otherwise). If a science based organization made members sign a document stating that they believed in the objective reality of the physical world, then they would be discriminating against idealists in the same way that the BSA supposedly does against atheists. Can science based organizations receive federal funding in Merlyn World? Isn't discrimination based on creed prohibited as well? A lot of people are idealists. Should they not get the same protection as atheists?

[Adrianvs]

Ohhh... I get it now!

 

Atheism is YOUR creed of choice, so there can be no publicly funded organizations that exclude them. But idealism is NOT YOUR creed of choice, so there is no problem funding organizations which exclude them. It's all really so very simple now..

 

Sure, you can dismiss idealists as fringe crackpots who choose to exclude themselves by virtue of there bizarre beliefs. Just don't be offended when others feel the same way about your negative creed. The point is that it comes down to the principles that you invoke. Even if it were only religous creeds that would not be discrimintated against, the principle would still hold. Idealism is as an essential aspect of some religions as theism is of others. You can't reduce all religion to the theistic issue alone simply because you disagree with the majority on it. There is a smaller religious minority which you refuse to protect with your own principles. Don't whine about government funded exclusion of atheists until you commit yourself to the eradication of government funded exclusion of idealists. It's much more common. Somehow, I doubt that your "principles" are quite that dear to you, however.