How Death cometh

[Adrianvs]

"None of you are trained in philosophy."

 

Wheeler,

 

I am trained in philosophy. I asked you a question before and I would like an answer. Plato, whom you quote as an infallible authority, stated that women could be members of the ruling class in his society. I would have to check, but I think that he also included them as members of the second class, the soldiers ruled by 'timos' or honor. You seem to indicate that leadership is exclusively male. He also proposes that children are raised collectively by members of the class they belong to. Plato argued for the dissolution of the family as a meaningful unit. Can you please explain to me how and where Plato went wrong? Re-read the Republic if necessary. If Plato is wrong about these things, then I think that you need to lay out his false from true teachings before you use him as an authority rather than an example.

 

Also, Stoicism was not adopted by the Church fathers without modification. I suggest that you read St. Augustine on the errors of Stoicism. I think that City of God is a good place to start. You can not separate Stoic ethics from Stoic logic (including epistemology), and Stoic physics. Even making these distinctions is contrary to Stoicism itself. You may agree with certain externals of Stoic ethics (not whining), but don't credit that to Stoicism itself. Stoics were hard determinists regarding the world who believed that humans could achieve perfection without divine aid. "Christian Stoics" can be found in the extinct heresy of Pelagianism. Look that one up.

 

BTW, Cicero was a crappy Stoic; at most he paid only lip service to it. He is a notorious whiner and his constant complaining should not be the basis for a devotion to 'gravitas.'

 

I must congratulate you, however, on managing to turn an entire group of people against philosophy or anything that even remotely looks or smells like it. I didn't think that was possible in two months time..(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

[WHEELER]

Socrates and Plato both grew during their carreer in Philosophy. Dan mentioned that Xenophon recorded Socrates younger days as a flaming homo. But in the later dialogue of Plato, Plato has Socrates denying a homosexual union. I believe Socrates grew out of it. People do change.

 

The early dialogues of Plato can be said to be Socratic. Socrates was such a tremendous influence that Plato invented the dialogues for people to discover who this character was. Yes, in the Republic Socrates called for women in the military and as guardians. But in the Laws, it is very different. Women do not appear in the military or in the government. Read the Laws.

 

I quoted from Edith Hamilton: her view of stoicism is in the reply of the thread, "A Mystery---The Good comes thru the hard". Yes, Stoicism had it's errors. But Stoicism had more in common with Christianity than many other of the cults, mystery religions of Rome.