The Ideal, The Telos and its lack in BSA

[WHEELER]

Yes, it was Socrates that said the most important thing in a man's life is to care for his soul and to seek after truth. It is Socrates that the whole of Western Culture rests on. It was he that had the greatest influence other than Jesus on our way of life.

 

It was Socrates that emphasized VIRTUE and Virtue is what the soul needs. Virtue is mentioned in the Boy Scout Federal Charter of 1915. Not values. Socrates has had an impact on the Boy Scouts from its very inception.

 

[firstpusk]

"Yes, it was Socrates that said the most important thing in a man's life is to care for his soul and to seek after truth. It is Socrates that the whole of Western Culture rests on. It was he that had the greatest influence other than Jesus on our way of life."

 

Your posts slander the BSA program and scouters that deliver the promise. They indicate that neither man has had much impact on your life.

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

I have always been a strong supporter of Socrates, but to lay the whole of Western Civilization at his feet seems a bit much. I realize it must have been tainted by socialist effeminate rhetoric, but I was taught in the Roman Catholic Seminary, St Charles Borromeo of the Diocese of Joliet, Illinois that Western Civilization is comprised of three attributes, the Greek Dignity of man (Ok Socrates fits in here, but not all by himself), the Roman Rule of Law, and the Judeo/Christian moral value system.

[red feather]

This may no more than a rant.

 

Scouting does not make men out of boys, it provides a window into what is possible that what a young boy/man can become/do. It can provide a confidence that the scout can build on that will help him to become the man that he can become. Many other influences can direct the young scout into other directions, most of which we have no control over.

 

Scouting provides 'extra stuff' that a scout can use, if not now immediatelely then later in life, that will allow them to be a better person ( or citizen if you wish).

 

W, I do not have your reading knowledge but I do have many years of working with young men that have shown that scouting is a very positive influence in the lives of the scouts. And that is enough for me.

 

True Returns.

 

yis

[WHEELER]

I ask you again Red Feather, What is a movement? The boys are in a movement? What do they move towards?

 

Lord Baden-Powell used these words in his "Aid to Scoumastership"

 

"Virile trusty race of citizens". What is the first adjective he used?

 

To OGE

 

The Roman Catholic Church is rife with effeminacy. The bishops and the priests. The go from High School, to College, to Seminary, to the serving in Parishes. They never learn what it means to be a man. They lived the soft life all those years.

 

They can't defend the truth. They cannot preach from the scriptures. "They're afraid they might hurt someone's feelings". Most of them are besotten with feminism. The Catholic Priest here says that St. Paul is a misogynist. He is a feminist liberal. They wouldn't know what a man even if it ran them over.

 

They can't defend their own teachings. They cannot discipline. They are weak throughout.(This message has been edited by WHEELER)

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

So the Roman Rule of Law and the Judeo-Christian system of values/morals has nothing to do with the the formation of Western Civilization and it all rests on Socrates head?

 

BTW, One thing I have learned, just because a member of an organizaiton is wrong or does something bad, it doesnt mean the entire orgnization is wrong, or is bad.

[WHEELER]

Yes, OGE, Roman Law, The Old Testament (Judiasm) and New (Christianity) had also very big and important influences. I was pointing out emphatically the influence of Socrates which is not well known. The Common saying is the Judeo-Christian Culture. It should read the Roman, Judeo, Hellenic Christian culture. When we say Western Culture the most basic element is of Hellenism, then Roman law and then Christianity. Even Christianity is enmeshed with Plato's and Socrates' teachings. The whole New Testament was written in Greek and for the frist 400 years the Roman church spoke Greek at Rome!

But to get back on thread.

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to Offer young people responsible fun and adventure; Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law; Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership; Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program

This is the vision statement of the BSA. Notice how Scoutcraft, Wood craft and camping and hiking do not appear in the "Future of Scouting". It says "offer". God never appears. And it says values-based program. not movement. I thought Scouting was based in virtues????

 Scoutcraft is a dangerous habit to continue. I trace my ability of acuteness to the Scouting movement. I was trained by habit to notice things. We do not want future boys to have this habit. It is dangerous for the progressive, contemporary society.

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

Ok, so even though you said all of Western Civilization was based on Socrates, you knew that the Roman Rule of Law and Judeo-Christian ethics system also had a huge role, but you just wanted to discount that. Ok, so its ok to post only part of what you know, as long as it makes the point you want to make and you hope no one can catch you on the details. I know a Turk taught you Greek, did a Jesuit or a Christian Brother teach you how to debate?

 

BTW the Scoutcraft director in our summercamp last year was a, a, a, GIRL!!!! OutdoorThinker Even and know what??? She is a member of the crew I "run" you know, she is president of the COuncil Venture Executive Board (Venture Youth) and the VP and Secretary are also females from "MY" Crew and you know what? COme to think of it, I am pushing a Feminist Agenda, WOW, and all I did was start off trying to provide outdoor challenges to youth who wanted to participate. Oh well, what a wolrd, what a world

[Marty_Doyle]

OGE -

Don't slander the Jesuits and Christian Brothers. They would ask one to "define your terms" first and come to agreement on what all the terms mean. That has not been done at any time in these threads.

And I think wheeler telling us to get back to the thread is somewhat hilarious.

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

You are right Marty Doyle, I apologize to any and all Jesuits or Christian Brothers for my unscoutlike remarks, they were beneath the dignity of a man, but comming from "moi" what did you expect???

[WHEELER]

Jesus had his Judas, Leonidas had his Ephialtes, the Boy Scouts have its OGE.

[Marty_Doyle]

OGE-

 

Illegitimati non carborundum

 

As if you would.....

[Marty_Doyle]

And as for Wheeler's decidely un-Scout-like comment about OGE, I think it is time for an appropriate quote from a friend of BSA:

 

"It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out where the strong man stumbled, or where a doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, and who comes up short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause. The man who at best knows the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, fails while daring greatly, so that his place will never be with those cold timid souls who never knew victory or defeat."

---Teddy Roosevelt

 

Those willing to invest their time and efforts working with youth are in the arena.

[Guest OldGreyEagle]

There are no fools more troublesome than those with wit. - Ben Franklin

[Marty_Doyle]

I'm hurt, OGE.